Season 4 Episode 9: Kay Louise Aldred and Katherine Schneider

In this episode of the Mad and Crip Theology Podcast, we sit down with Kay Louise Aldred and Kathie Schneider to explore spiritual abuse, belonging, and faith through neurodivergent and disabled lenses.

Kay talks about the urgent need for safeguarding in faith and wellness spaces, especially for neurodivergent women and girls, and shares red and green flags for healthy spiritual communities. Kathie reflects on her life as a blind theologian, her evolving relationship with faith, and how metaphors in scripture can either harm or heal. We ask honest, grounding questions about prayer, interdependence, abuse, and what it means to truly belong.

Based on Kay's piece “Safeguarding Neurodivergent Individuals from Spiritual Abuse” and Kathie’s “Blind Faith: Beyond ‘Amazing Grace’” from the Fall 2024 issue of The Canadian Journal of Theology, Mental Health and Disability.

Watch on YT here: https://youtu.be/kFo3DLU8KLk

• Follow us on Facebook
• Read the Journal
• Check out Mad and Crip Theology Press

Transcript

Welcome to this episode of the Mad and Crip Theology Podcast we're delighted that you're listening to us or watching us on YouTube and we're one quick announcement that we will be publishing a general issue this fall so if people have articles or stories or creative work you have and you think would be a good fit for the journal please submit or be in touch with us through our email um we would be excited to have your work. And today we're delighted to be joined by two of our contributors Kay and Katherine so before we jump into questions would both of you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your piece in the journal so Katherine I invite you to get us going.

Uh okay I'm Katherine Schneider iIm blind from birth i'm a retired clinical psychologist author of four books and a blog disability activist by starting awards and serving on boards uh I grew up uh liberal Protestant then nothing then church of the month Methodist Catholic now I'd say I'm an ecumenical Christian including in partic in in-person participation in an inclusive ministry church and I'm an "armchair theologian" no expert I'm accompanied by my guide dog Calvin who is sleeping at my feet and may have comments but probably not. Wonderful Katherine my guide dog Noel is on my feet too so they would have fun together if they met and Kay and you introduce yourself and your work yeah sure um I'm Kay Aldred I am based in the UK um academically loosely in that inverted commas i'm a theologian um my work but but by profession I was a secondary school teacher for 20 years until a burnout and then late diagnosed autistic ADHD and I now work as a development lead at Neurodiverse Connection uh which is a community interest company um I work primarily with health um services to support neurodivergent affirming practice within health and social care um but I do have a a really acute interest in embodied theology embodiment theology and also um interested in safeguarding all spaces um and that includes spiritual and religious spaces and that's what I was invited to to do a commentary on delighted to be here no pets no pets for me! Well thank you so much both of you welcome it's so lovely to be here with you today and um we're going to get started uh by asking you some questions today Kay so we wanted to ask you um because you mentioned the word just just right before so what is "safeguarding" and can you tell us why might it be lacking in some Christian communities? Yeah sure so so for me safeguarding is is a is an active um it's something that everybody needs to be part of um I kind of work to what the NHS um description of safeguarding that's the National Health Service over here which is around um protecting people from harm and abuse um and it's a collective responsibility um and for me why might it be lacking in um some faith communities um mainly I think it's because um these communities Christian communities particularly at least I can only speak for the Anglican denomination because that was what I was part of um don't have external regulation um it's not ex an externally overseen aspect of Christian communities and therefore um safeguarding for me will always be lacking if there's not an independent um oversight kind of or person going on something that is separate to the community someone that is separate to that um so yeah I think does that speak to it Amy or is there anything else? Yeah sure so um I wanted to ask you so like do you uh when you talk about safeguarding do you think that there's not um like the ministers or the other people who work at the church they they need some help with doing this work like um are they not being trained on safeguarding or is it something that might um like they might need a little bit of help to be able to start to do uh more formally? Hope that question makes sense yes it does make sense perfectly um I think actually there are pock pockets of really good training going on uh in faith communities and um I think the problem for me when I look in that faith community is the overarching um sort of control that it that safeguarding that there may be some people that are really well trained in safeguarding that then report up the chain but then the chain stops because it's a closed system so if there's no external eyes and no ex external accountability to someone who is outside the faith system it's going to protect itself closed systems protect themselves and so um yes I'm sure that everybody can benefit of up to-date training with safeguarding me included i'm constantly having to up be up to date with it but for me the it's the closed system nature that puts kind of compromises the safeguarding that goes on.

Thanks Kay. So your work focus on focus on safe guarding for neurodivergent people so I wonder if you explain um the the particularities among diverent peoples and then also specifically among the neurodiverent women and girls. Yeah sure um so from my understanding and my um research um predators move in in in environments where um where they are protected by the system but also where that there may be more vul-and I'm using the word here vulnerable people not that they are that neurody divergent cause causes a vulnerability but they are um um yeah they can be more vulnerable. So for neurodivergent individuals um where we don't already don't feel like we fit in the world or we are seeking to find meaning I often say we're seeking for another world within this one we will find ourselves often in faith or spiritual communities seeking meaning and um belonging those basic spiritual needs that we need met um I think the intersection between neurodivergence women and girls gender and um the the increased risk is because of the power imbalance and dynamics that already exist within within patriarchal organizations so white male hierarchical dominance um um and in like paternistic you know kind of like over overtones um it means that it it can be harder just to even report and speak up to up about abuse because of that hierarchy plus um um we are conditioned in our gender to be "nice" nice girls and of course religious narrative will support that and doctrine can support that and and our nervous system response when we're under threat is to tend and befriend rather than fight or flight even to some extent we we go to the fawn response and and because um autistic girls often genuinely seek connection um and are really openhearted I'm using a word that you wouldn't find in the research but like literally see the best and find it really hard to conceive that people have mal intent um want to do mal intent or have you know you know well I'm trying to think of a way to put it want to harm them they are automatically more at risk um of of predatory and and abusive behaviour um and so I think it's that intersection of all those things that that increases the vulnerability and risk um that that predators can choose to choose to um abuse this particular demographic I hope that answers it. Yeah yeah that totally answers it thank you so much and wow I'm so glad that you're able to write for us and and come and um let folks know about about this so thank you. Um so the next question that we wanted to ask you was about um so you said uh in the piece you mentioned experiences of feeling minimized and dismissed when you had reported abuse in the past um so how do you hope it will go for other people who are in the same situation?

Um yeah that's such a it's such a good question and very very timely at the moment with everything that's unfolding within the Anglican Church in the UK so um I would hope firstly that um that that the person would be validated and that proper procedures and processes would be followed um so that the the there there is a reassurance for the other person that there would be that there it's being taken seriously that there will be a thorough investigation and that the outcome will be transparently communicated um I would also hope that the investigation takes unlike me is done by someone external I keep talking about this to the organization um and and from from my perspective external to their particular church community um because you know pre pre-existing relationships compromises transparency and and um and an effective um kind of investigation taking place but yeah the the main thing is that that they receive trauma-informed care that they are validated and and understood and and that the the process is transparent and and handled externally does that answer it Amy?

Definitely yeah! And when you talk about "external investigations" you mean people outside the local congregation right it could be people connected to the wider church but not members of the local local church right? I think to begin with and and not members of the local church would be a start but for me I think there should be an external regulatory body that inspect faith communities like like we have here for education offstead and the CQC for health so my I'm really very much in that that camp and that yeah! Ok that's helpful. 

Uh I lost my place... Thank you Amy! Welcome! So um we wondered finally we might have more questions as the conversation goes on but can you talk about some um signs of health in responding to these situations of abuse or or being places of belonging in healthy faith communities? Yeah sure um for me um in a healthy a "green flag" for a healthy community is that your body tells you it's safe i'm very much about felt sense so that that you you know you know in your body that you feel safe but that can be not for everybody and so I think um really a respect for individual individuality and diversity and and also critical thinking that everything can be questioned um that there's you know without without repercussion or or or retribution you can ask questions and really critically think and be curious um I think a pro- for me also a green flag is that that mental and physical health is promoted and and actually that um there's not a that that that we can explore all ways of supporting our mental and physical health i'm very much embodiment focused um also I think for me an emphasis on service to the wider world and the wider community that it isn't just about serving the the closed community that there's a a service to to the um people outside of the community is a green flag as well um and and accountability that that the feedback is invited encouraged um and and then I think also what I wanted to mention is if there's any ruptures in relationship um it you know because we will get things wrong that repair is healthy and happens um that to me and all of that all of that is modeled through the leadership because if we if we're not seeing it then it's not being it for me that it you know you really have a if you have hold the power uh in a in a in a any community but especially in a faith community you walk your talk and you model that accountability um I hope that's enough but do let me know if you need any more. Yeah thank you so much for for sharing your work and yeah some important questions and thoughts for churches and and communities of faith to explore.

Yeah thanks so much Kay I I was also thinking while you were talking that um I really like that you brought in the the idea of repair that that you see that there's hope in this situation and there can be repair done um ethically um and uh yeah and there's hope in that for me I think so thank you so much for sharing. And so now we're going to um talk to Kathie about some questions um so lovely to have you here Kathy and we wanted to ask you the first question was about um we're going to dig into some disability theology now so would you be able to talk to us about how disability theologians like Nancy Eiesland and John Hull have shaped your relationship with your faith? I'll back up a little bit if it's okay before that to... Sure sure! Put it in the context of liberation theology uh I have a popular understanding of that uh and it's actually what attracted me to theology slash religion slash investigating faith uh with the themes of beyond charity to activism working with people instead of doing charity for people i think liberation theology is got a lot of good going for it but it really hasn't had a lot of work from a disability perspective all sorts of black liberation, women's liberation etc etc etc not a whole lot disability and the parts of it that have attracted me to dig in how does God view the disability and for me that boils down to those of us with disabilities were wonderfully made uh we're all wonderfully made how do you how do you read the Bible in the light of our disability circumstances acknowledging that it was written in a particular historical context which is not necessarily the same as today for example the old Leviticus uh you can't do temple service if you have a blemish kind of stuff that was then uh this is now uh we do well to realize that uh the world has gone beyond that kind of theology hopefully churches do too how do you view Jesus uh fellow sufferer a guide for how to deal with unjust systems nonviolent action emphasis on that and liberation theology solidarity with people with and without disabilities asking us what we want uh being with us and for us instead of doing for us. For example in the situation our previous speaker spoke of I I live and hope that there's somebody in the chain of command with disabilities that has a perspective on the abuse or possible abuse that took place so that that disability perspective is there in the dealing with the situation. What's the kingdom of God like? Uh liberation theology does a good job of saying "Hey it's it's in our midst in addition to being in the sweet by and by kind of thing." Now these themes of liberation theology uh have been dealt

with well by people like Nancy Eiesland John Hull uh Nancy Eiesland talking about disabled God uh Kathy Black talking about the interdependent God uh

uh Weiss Block talking about accessible God talking about copious hosting John Hull talking about darkness in the beginning was darkness and he was a blind guy and he talking about darkness not as evil etc but as the place where things

began. Yeah thanks Kay there were all of us were nodding along to your your words here can so have they how have they shaped your your view of faith your own faith?

I've picked up ideas from each of them and when I'm trying to deal with a concrete faith situation

uh and I think we'll get to that later in some of my prayer seeds but

I sort of touch back on "Wait a minute uh where would Jesus be in this situation?" and he'd be beside beside me in the struggle.

The the importance of the solidarity. Yeah.

Yeah can you talk to us about the

your prayer seeds? Yeah uh I kind of got this idea from uh Kate Bowler who had stage four cancer and that informs her theologically theological work one of her recent books is called Have a Beautiful Terrible Day Meditations and she's written a lot of prayers that deal with concrete situations that she and other people find themselves in who have illnesses so uh I thought well you know let's let's play with this uh I originally thought I would write a psalm but I'm not up to writing a psalm at this point so uh I wrote some prayer seeds for example prayers uh to be healed from hurt when I'm underestimated heal me from resentment uh give me rest from struggles for acceptance give me courage to reach out for help and to reach out to be helped give me joy in the funny parts of interacting with other people and their abilities and disabilities give me dreams of a more accessible world give me an appreciation of beauty awe and wonder that isn't just visual so much of the emphasis is on visual well let's let's let's turn that around and enjoy the nonvisual as well get prayers of thanks for the blessings of disability because it's not all struggle struggle struggle uh some of the things that disability has developed in me things like dogged persistence knowing about interdependence

uh knowing how to listen well as a blind person my life depends on it but I think all of our lives would be better if we listened more uh sometimes I it's I'm thankful for not seeing the ugliness uh I worked as a psychologist and an awful lot of the people that came to see me felt that they were ugly and they knew that I wasn't looking at them I wasn't seeing them that way I could dig beneath that and hear the inner beauty the urge to grow and that was a gift uh my ability to code switch to kind of improv make plan B plan C when plan A doesn't work out prioritize because of fibromyalgia which I also have can't do it all not that anybody can but uh I found out that I had to be better at prioritizing uh I'm continually challenged to become more patient to ask for what I need uh to have an ability to advocate on the fly.

For example of that uh yesterday I was in a business meeting with some people fellow people from the county board and one of them said "Well Kathie we're really glad that you're here and adding your perspective but you're expensive." And I I was gobsmacked by that and uh my better angel luckily was on my shoulder and all I said was I may be expensive but I'm richly worth it and everybody laughed and we went on to something else but the how do you deal with God's grace with people that say things that they ought not to say so that's some of my prayer seeds in prayer life.

Thank you so much Kathie yeah it sounds like you had a lot of patience and grace with that person I'm glad i don't know if my better angel has my shoulder that much these days but I'm glad I'm glad yours was there for you um at that moment at that moment yeah all right um all right so you you mentioned a word uh when you were just speaking there the word "interdependence" so we were wondering um could you explain for our listeners what is that and you know what are some ways you've experienced uh interdependence in your life?

Uh in modern times it seems like there's an awful lot of talk about being independent and I don't buy it I don't think any of us is independent uh to me we're all interdependent to different degrees in different situations but we need each other we need God uh a real simple example is I've had the privilege of working with guide dogs for 50 years and I have learned so much from each one of those critters working with another intelligent creature they're you know they're they're a gift from God and we work as a team in some aspects I'm in charge in some aspects they're in charge and it's a back and forth

interdependent situation and I think our our lives are much more like that than they are like John Wayne independent kind of attitude.

Now I think sometimes uh when people think about people with disabilities they think oh yeah you need me and you need the person without a disability may think that I need their help and may be true but they don't think about it in the other way of what do they need from me uh hopefully it doesn't just mean that they need gratitude from me they need somebody to feel better than from me but hopefully they need some of my gifts as much as I need some of their gifts. I see a lot of this as I work with a local group uh called Ecumenical Inclusive Ministry and once a month different churches provide a program including worship Sunday School and a meal for people with cognitive and other disabilities the kind of people that get the stink eye in regular churches which they shouldn't but they do and so uh this is a a church for people with disabilities I got involved with it particularly because I wanted to be sure that it wasn't yet again people without disabilities doing for people with disabilities so I wanted to get in there and work on lowering the "us versus them" kind of feeling and also lowering the uh you don't have anything to give to try to get to where everybody's gifts are used in that church everybody belongs everybody is needed in that particular fellowship

and working with volunteers who come in and come from all different places as far as their views of disability uh it provides many opportunities for me to work on some of those things that I was praying about earlier like patience when somebody tells me oh no you can't use scissors during the craft period I'll do it for you kind of thing uh to give a Christian response to that as opposed to a immediate harsh response so

I it's a place where I grow every month. That's great yeah

sometimes there needs to be lots of education to get to places of mutuality and

reciprocity for sure. Um in your piece you also raised uh some stories in scripture that refer to

blindness and there are a wide variety of views and interpretations of this scriptures  but can you tell us how you interpret them how they can be harmful or how to just can interpret them to be um to be life-giving?

Well the oldest kind of interpretation blindness punishment from God and uh as something that makes

somebody unclean like that Levitus thing about you can't uh offer temple worship you can't be clergy kind of thing if you have a disability or blindness in particular uh another old view of blindness is or any disability is it's a defect to be healed and particularly if you're good enough or if you pray enough then you'll be healed uh in the New Testament

uh Jesus questions like in John 9 the man born blind story most principally he says no that wasn't the sin of the person or the sin of his parents that he was born blind it was that God's works be made manifest best and I think that's a very liberating view to say okay how how has how can my blindness work toward the glory of God uh where can I contribute?

Uh the fact that um St. Paul in all probability had a disability uh we have a few models of from scripture of people with disabilities uh being in leadership positions or h- being able to use their gifts but you kind of got to scratch around and look for them and interrogate them to get beyond the "blind equals darkness sin" kind of stuff and beyond the okay object of charity if you give a feast invite the blind because they can't repay you now I'm all don't get me wrong I'm all in favor of being invited to the feast but uh I probably can bring a dish as well to the feast!

I love that!

Um yeah and I really liked uh what you said as well Kathie about interrogating the scriptures and um as disability theologians or you know folks who are preaching and and teaching to feel comfortable with doing that and take a second look and try to dig around and see what else could be there like like Miriam had said that is lifegiving for folks so thank you so much for that. Um at this point in the podcast what we usually do is we ask both of you if you have any questions or wonderings for each other um now that you've taken a look at each other's pieces or you've had a chance to meet each other today so Kay I was wondering if there's anything that you might want to ask Kathie or um if you have any thoughts you want to share?

Yes I really loved um that you spoke to the you didn't speak directly to the sensory experience um and that we should invite more ways of how I how I heard it and I might be wrong Kathie so do tell me if I'm if I am um the f the the focus is on the visual whereas actually there's a whole inner world which you talked about in your your clinical practice um of sensing and and the kind of um the the connection or the communion um we get through that is there anything else if I misinterpreted you here do you tell me but is there anything else you could expand on that because for me from an embodiment perspective a sematic perspective and a nervous system perspective that felt sense experience um of divinity is the is the thing that has kept me connected to any element of of faith um it's only that the visual it's not because what I see is just not not not of of divinity is there anything you could expand on that um or share?

Yeah I love your emphasis on embodiment because I think that's a key

that our theologizing is not just a head trip but it's lived experience including bodily experience for example Advent uh in the Christian uh calendar talks a lot about light in the darkness well for those of us who are born blind light in the darkness yeah we know what it means but it doesn't connect so I've I've asked some preachers to think about hey could you say "light and warmth" because oftenimes light produces warmth as well so could you say light and warmth in the dark now that that might be particularly popular in Wisconsin where I live in other cold climates but uh other senses other than just the visual sense as well as the inner sense that you were talking about Kay.

Well that's lovely thank you Kathie and uh Kathie do do you have any questions or wonderings or or thoughts for Kay that you'd like to share?

Yeah I would love to know more

about the system change that you hope for so that the

safety considerations for people with

disabilities are taken seriously how do you imagine getting a disability perspective in there because I think so often people with disabilities are treated as little innocent children or people without agency how can you get the people in the system to have a different view and to take the allegations seriously?

Yeah thank you for that question Kathie and and you've kind of answered it so I'm going to reflect back some some of the things you you said um theologically we need to um center liberation theology as as as the theology to lead from and to inform policy and procedure um however um the model that I work in in in the UK in the me so we could transfer the model of how I work so although I'm a trained professional I lead through my lived experience so I'm implementing support and change in mental health systems through lived experience my my worth is my neurodivergent embodied experience and so we need as you said we need the visibility we need the people with the lived experience the disabled people to be the leaders and who are informing the policy changes um and and and in terms of safeguarding the victim survivours to you know the the to be the people who are writing the new policies creating the new safeguarding structures um aside what I've already said about it need to be an external but in terms of of changing how church is it they you have to center people who have the lived experience I hope that answers Kathie which you already said as well that that is that is wonderful and I hear your excitement about it and that that's exciting to me that that work is going on!

Thank you. Well thank you so much to you both Kathie and Kay it was great talking with you and learning with you and yeah I hope we hope we talk again and see see some of your work in the journal in the future. Keep up the good work with the journal and the podcast thank you I admire II admire it!

Yeah I agree fully it's amazing work and and also the um the positioning and the generosity you extend the people who you platform and allow to have a voice um it's phenomenal so yeah thank you um yeah that's just want to say that. Great!