Season 4 Episode 8: Luna Harlow on Spiritual Trauma & Storytelling

In this episode of the Mad & Crip Theology Podcast, Amy and Miriam are joined by special guest Luna Harlow for a thoughtful, grounded conversation on spiritual trauma and the beauty of storytelling. Together, they explore how faith communities can harm and heal, and how naming our experiences can open up space for care, reflection, and resistance. Expect some Friday brain moments, community updates, and a lot of honesty.

✨ Mentioned in this episode:

-The Canadian Journal of Theology, Mental Health & Disability is accepting new work for our Fall 2025 issue!
-New spring merch from the Press 🎉

-Resources recommended by Luna in the episode:

1. Laura Anderson, When Religion Hurts You: Healing from Religious Trauma and the Impact of High-Control Religion. 
2. Michelle Panchuk, "The Shattered Spiritual Self: A Philosophical Exploration of Religious Trauma" Res Philosophica.

Join us for this gentle, important conversation at the intersections of theology, mental health, and disability justice.

Watch on YouTube here: https://youtu.be/uWSk0NXu5LY

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Transcript

Welcome to the Mad and Crip Theology podcast It's so great to be here with you today We were just saying it's Friday so our brains are in a bit of Friday mode so you might feel that a little bit today as we're moving through the episode Um before we begin uh talking with our guest Luna today we just have a couple of announcements that we wanted to mention um as always we're always looking for content for the Canadian Journal of Theology Mental Health and Disability uh right now we're publishing once a year so in the fall. So if there's anything that you have around that you feel like needs to get out in the world like papers or maybe some poetry some uh paintings or uh short stories we'd love to have you send it our way. So you can um you can email us or uh submit it formally through the journal's page. Um yeah and other than that um just a quick press announcement We do have some new merch up on the Press's website so if you're interested in wearing like getting a cool t-shirt uh to refresh your spring wardrobe you're always welcome to take a look at some of the t-shirts that we have up there. So I think that's it for now!

So we're delighted to be here today with Luna one of our contributors to the Fall issue of the journal and so we want to invite you to introduce yourself and then um talk about your paper and what you were doing in the paper and maybe tell us about one of your case studies within it.

Hello everyone! This is my first time being a guest on a podcast! Thanks for having me. Um I'm Luna and um this is my pet Coco and um I am a doctorate student at the University of Toronto and uh this uh article um is a condensed version of my master's work um and also a continuation of my doctoral work um that is um my research is attempting to define the experience of spiritual trauma um in an academic setting and um there isn't a formal definition for spiritual trauma yet um so I'm contributing to that scholarship um and this article is the first one that I know of um that um is a hypothesis or a proposal of um what spiritual trauma um how we might describe it so that's kind of exciting um and there's um other definitions out there. There's um religious abuse is pretty is being discussed quite a lot um and religious trauma and but this spiritual trauma piece um is just being developed right now and it's a little bit distinct because it specifically looks at the experience of a survivor um and what happens to them after experiencing a really harmful um abusive situation um from um a damaging religious experience. So um this study at the beginning it gives you some definitions um and then it moves into some um the study that I did that is a qualitative study which is um focusing on a few people's stories um in depth and I um share them in the form of case studies um so and they're surrounding some young adults that are over 18 um that are on a journey of healing from spiritual trauma um and they came from various fundamentalist Christian church groups um and that wasn't I just did like a general call for like do you identify with this um being on a journey of healing from spiritual trauma? And these people reached out to me and it just so happened that they came from um these different denominations or versions of Christian fundamentalism um that wasn't a requirement um yeah and so the one story that I would like to highlight um I there's five stories in this article but the one I've chosen is Serena's story because there's an element in it that's different than the other stories um so Serena went through her faith deconstruction at the same time as her parents um and this was significant because the family unit um stayed together and I whereas the other stories it's common for the survivor to be asking these really big questions and their parents are maintaining these really strong beliefs and the child is like there's a big rift between the parent and the child and that adds kind of another layer of trauma um because now you have your um religious trauma that you're going through and your all these conflicts and then you also have family conflicts on top. But Serena she wasn't shamed by her family um for asking these questions She didn't have to hide the books that you're asking questions because her parents were buying the same books um so they could leave the community together. They could ask these questions together. So that doesn't make Serena's story easier um but I just noticed that um the other stories mentioned you know friends were really comforting to them during this time and Serena mentioned friends and family were comforting during this time So um I just thought that was really special and I wanted to highlight that um because it kind of also talks about both um the other case studies as well. So yeah Thank you so much for that Luna I was wondering um as you were talking do you did you have any insights into why Serena's family seemed to be all doing this at the same time? Like did they have some kind of um catalyst like something that happened to them as a group that made them want to start to explore or was it like a more gradual thing? Do you do you remember?

Um I you know what I don't have Serena here beside me to ask her but um from what I can infer is that there was um some there was some brewing questions but also there was some unethical things going on in the community um that made their whole family just be like "Oh we need to start asking some questions and I don't think this is for us." And yeah so oh that that makes sense. Yeah Yeah . That the whole family was like "Yeah we all they all saw it together at the same time I think." Okay Yeah that makes a lot of sense I I wanted to ask you just briefly too Um now this this might be a dumb question and I'm sorry if it is but um so like when you mean when you talk about spiritual trauma do you mean that it's like uh or as this field is developing. Yeah. Do you think the field is trying to say that um it's trauma that a person's spirit has has um gone through or is it more like trauma that's been inflicted on somebody by spiritual group or is it both? Okay yeah yeah yeah yeah It is both. Um Okay. It's it's talking about kind of the the topic like you know we have like sexual trauma and physical trauma and and um emotional trauma like so it's both talking about the the type of abuse that happened and um but also like the just like where you're triggered and uh yeah where that pain is. And so with spiritual trauma it can be like okay so it's really really profoundly hurt with all the matters that have to do with religion and spirituality and so when that stuff comes up it's really really painful to me And it can also be like and therefore my own um sense of self and um view of the world is really really broken um so sometimes people maintain that but I was really interested in this because people talk about religion and spirituality is kind of known for being a on the list of things that are positive coping mechanisms for meaning making for good but when it's used as um like a poison instead of a um a healing thing um what does that do to the person where they're like ah I can't do this anymore and it's really hurtful to me. So they're kind of all wrapped up in this yeah. And maybe maybe I misheard you but you seem to differentiate religious trauma from spiritual trauma and I wondered if you might uh talk tell me more about that. Yeah um and that starts to get quite narrow in the what we're talking about So um the religious trauma is a little bit more the um pain and the topics that have um hurt the person are surrounding um church symbols or uh like religious um we kind of talk about religious things like it's a little bit easier to see um because there's rituals and garments and celebrations um so uh why religious trauma has been talked about a little bit more is it's easier to identify. We can kind of point to what religion is um and so what would be an example of religious trauma um say uh...

I was I was thinking when you were talking maybe something like sexual abuse by clergy? Yeah yeah yeah which might be kind of like um sort of tied up into a lot of the power dynamics perhaps like like you were saying like the the vestments or you know a certain place like a church where something might happen. Does that do you think that that could be an example? Yeah that's an excellent example yeah okay. Yes um and that combines both religious trauma and sexual trauma together Um and thank you for mentioning that one Amy because that's actually where all of this research a lot of it has started is with um that clergy perpetrated sexual abuse um and the spiritual trauma is harder to describe because um it's more with um it's hard to describe spirituality um and it's hard to describe trauma um so it's it's I like um beliefs that um people who experienced um conversion therapy um is an example because it tries to tell you that your sexuality is uh so like it's wrong it's shameful who you are um you need to be changed to be loved who you are is broken um and it's it has a lot to do with you know your who you are your so because spirituality is your identity and your sexuality and all that um so that can cause a spiritual trauma um because it's yeah it's psychological it's who you are as an identity so yeah that would be an example of spiritual abuse that causes spiritual trauma.

Thanks Luna. Um we wanted to talk about the the process of healing and we know your participants didn't describe it as linear but it was messy so can you talk to us about that? Yeah um let's see okay um so I would descri- from these articles this these case studies um I would say that healing was described as progressive or evolutionary um and that it happens slowly and over time um and it may be difficult to see each day like your hair growing um and but then when you look back um you see that you've grown a lot um and another thing I noticed was um they described healing as an instinctive process um that they followed their gut for what they thought was the best for their health um yeah that it was like okay this just I don't know what it is but this just feels wrong that the I've been told my whole life that this is the way but it just doesn't make sense and it doesn't feel right. So but this way it just feels actually loving um so I'm going to go with this for now um and then yeah over time going with that I just feel like this is the loving way and yeah following their gut instinct and them finding that that was healing for them and there wasn't a single quick miracle cure for their for their trauma um but I did see obvious themes like most of them or all of them described the benefit of returning to a good therapist that they had a connection with and um the having a supportive group of friends um that they could be themselves and honestly say their questions and their struggles helped with the the isolating the loneliness um from leaving a a tight-knit community. So those were things that were very obvious to their their healing journey yeah. Yeah thanks for that I really like your your analogy of um maybe sometimes we can't see the growth or the healing every day It is like hair growing and then when you you look back you're like oh my like we were just talking before the episode began your hair is getting so long!! So yeah what a beautiful way of thinking about it an encouraging way to think that like maybe sometimes even if we can't see it or feel it is still happening. Yes. You know most of the time. Yeah And I was thinking to you as you were talking like um sort of like the Western way that we often think about healing and I think we're kind of like pushed to heal is a very linear um is a linear way and also like for for some of us who are kind of in in the psychotherapy realm or in spiritual care that can be sometimes there can be like a people feel like forced like oh I only have 12 sessions so I need to try to like heal in 12 sessions! And so um I really like this more sort of slow uh gradual um like free way of of healing where there isn't as much pressure I always love that article called Hurry Up and Heal the idea that you know there's this there's supposed to be a certain timeline for healing and it's so much better to think about it I think um in a in a slow way so thank you so much for for talking about that. Yeah I do like the hair growing because even you cut your hair but like your hair is going to continue to grow for most of us sometimes it falls out but yeah the kind of the yeah I like the just idea of evolutionary that um you the trajectory is you're growing but it is slow yeah. Yes um so the next the next question we wanted to ask you is about a lot of the participants in your study talked about the idea of deconstruction and reconstruction of their faith so we were wondering if you could talk to us a little bit about that in terms of like like we said their faith and also their healing and the trauma that they had experienced. Yeah um this is a bit of a longer answer um so um I there's an analogy by um Laura Anderson who wrote a really lovely book I have a book recommendation um she wrote When Religion Hurts You um Healing from Religious Trauma and the Impact of High Control Religion The short title is when religion hurts you um so if uh you or your listeners are into this kind of stuff that's a really lovely book um and so she describes deconstruction like making a burrito bowl um where you examine each ingredient individually and choose what you want in your bowl um rather than having it all mixed up chopped up and wrapped in a tortilla um and then as children our beliefs um are given to us like nicely wrapped up in a tortilla um so we can digest it easily and then when you start cooking on your own um maybe like college age um uh depending on your age and situation um then you start examining okay what do I actually want in my burrito um and like your beliefs you start um go okay what do I actually want to believe in? And do I want this or not this and whatever um so that's how she describes it. And I think of deconstruction as saying no to old ideas um and say the reconstruction is saying yes to new ideas um and deconstruction is a normal and healthy part of growing up um that we all do it our brains grow um we and we adapt we change our minds and so for the people that I interviewed um sadly the deconstruction was for many of them a traumatic experience um because they came from religious cultures where asking questions about your beliefs and thinking critically and changing your minds was judged and shamed and isolating um and that can be a traumatic experience when a totally normal and healthy um neurological process like changing your mind um is discouraged and it's stunted by the community um so eventually the people in these case studies couldn't ignore their questions anymore uh and they faced some backlash from their religious communities um and it could be just like often like just negative comments um and um that stung um and losing friends um because there was nobody in the community that would ask those questions It was really it was forbidden um so it's that isolating experience um and so that's kind of where the the trauma and the deconstruction can get wrapped up together uh and the reconstruction um and saying yes can happen both simultaneously at um of deconstruction and it can happen independently um so when you will go back to the burrito analogy that you sometimes you say no to something and that's it like you just deconstruct um and you're like "No I don't want cheese on my burrito bowl." Or "No I don't want to believe in hell anymore." And that's it It's and it's okay to just deconstruct something because it's not helpful for you anymore um and then there's also you deconstruct to add something else Like I don't want white rice I would like brown rice instead please um so you take away a belief to add a belief um yes so that's my little spiel about all of that ask me to clarify anything.

I know you were talking about younger people and that makes total sense um is it similar when older adults cause we all have moments like I'm getting towards my 40s and that's feel like I'm deconstructing some ideas and attitudes and I think I will do that until I I die so can you talk about um yeah Is it the same same idea when you're older and how how does it impact people? Right uh my research is with young adults so I um don't want to give inaccurate information um yeah I so it's I I can't get testify to what it's like as and I um am still in my 20s so I also don't have personal experience um so I can just um say from um a few observations that um people should not take as the the only way like um is um I if somebody has had a belief for 40 40 years rather than um 20 years it it seems like it's a little bit more shocking um to deconstruct that just because it's more time um but the that is an excellent question um that um I would I would like to learn more about yeah.

Yeah thanks thanks so much Luna  I appreciate that I you know um I wanted to ask you a question about um you were saying that um this idea of like the participants were in faith communities where there wasn't like they were they had questions or doubts and the community wasn't able to like meet them in that space or hold them in that space to to give them time to like work things out. Do you think that this is just like a general question do you think most faith communities let's just say in Canada if we sort of like shrink it down to Canada do you think most most faith communities in Canada are open and flexible enough to hold people in those spaces where people can doubt or have questions or like completely change their minds about things? Or do you think it's that's a that's a growing edge for faith communities I'm just like curious what you think. Um I wonder I mean I haven't been in uh formal faith communities in a long time um and I also haven't experienced uh I have a limited experience with my former um experience was just with Christian communities um and I'm curious about um other religions in Canada um how um I would assume that there are other religions that hold uncertainty um better um that that's more intrinsic to their religious practice um and because these um people came from fundamentalist Christianity where um it was a core part of it is like having certainty um so the yeah and that was really really really comforting to the communities when you the the world seems very very unstable and uncertain you want something like so so certain. So when people come in and are asking really really critical questions that are shaking the certainty of the faith and are um asking the people to think in not black and white and in gray um it's really threatening um so uh yeah but that is a I think also I wonder if it's a personality thing? This is just me wondering This is not me. Yeah Yeah. Speaking from my my research now um but um if the um if some people are more prone to being um black and white thinkers and are po polarizing and some people are um more easily open to being gray in the middle non-binary flexible. Yeah. Yeah um that's helpful um this question is more about you and how you how this research connect with your own experience and journey and maybe talk to us about why you're why you're continuing this your PhD. Yeah uh so I grew up uh in a fundamentalist Christian environment and um in my early 20s I spent a lot of time saying no to things that were not for me um and that eventually I eventually said no to so many things that I was um landed in atheism. That was really um is so interesting because to my former community atheism was like the worst thing ever. Like it was atheism was so demonized um but it was really really comforting to me um and that for a moment that for a year or so that was my reconstruction that was helpful to me um and then uh slowly I found earth-based spirituality that um and um now I it's been maybe seven years or so um that um I found contemporary paganism that I've been practicing um that I didn't go seeking for it but I found that was um reconstructive for me uh and I've always loved trees and nature um but that's yeah I've just really really enjoyed um so that yeah has also been part of my reconstruction journey um and the why have I continued it with my PhD I finished my masters and I was like there is so much more to study there is so much more to write and learn more to learn um and I uh finished it um and I've noticed there's like a a big growth in this literature um and when versus like when I even when I started my masters and when I finished there was so many more books and like Laura Anderson's book has was released last year um so it was a year after I finished my master's. So there's just so much good stuff happening right now in this specific field um so I just want to um it's really exciting for a a nerd like me who's really invested in it because so much is coming out um so yeah I'm really excited to be in it. That's awesome yeah well you're with two fellow nerds so we are at home we are at one together um I you know it's interesting when you were talking about um like that there's more resources available now on this because I've I've seen it coming into the journal too like Miriam and I have seen it where we have more folks who are willing and able to talk about some of their experiences with with religious or spiritual trauma and um it like my dissertation was on self-injury and so people would often say uh are more people self-injuring or people just like more willing to talk about it and so it's kind of now like you wonder like do more pe have more people experienced religious trauma or are more people just like okay to talk about it like are there are we making spaces where these kind of conversations are like normalized and welcome uh and I hope I hope it's the latter! I hope that um even conversations like this podcast we're doing today will help to become a part of that like use the burrito the soup of goodness that will help folks heal um and and just like find other um find others who've been through similar things um yeah so so it's good and we're we're so excited for your PhD research and to see what uh what you do Are you going to be doing interviews with folks or are you using like more text interviews with folks? Yeah Yeah Oh that's cool I'm really excited to see how that's going to shape up. Yeah. Um I I wanted to ask one last question maybe before you wrap up and that is um do you what's one takeaway that you have for our listeners today um you know maybe if they have folks in their faith communities who are who they know might have some religious trauma in their background or maybe um we I know we do have a lot of ministers and spiritual care providers who listen to our podcast so like you mentioned Laura's book about When Religion Hurts You um maybe you could recommend a couple of other resources and then if there's anything else you want to say to folks who are listening right Um okay I think that that book is a great start um and I think just recommending one is just one good recommendation is good um. Okay. Um and let's see Okay Um what I would say what I would say to people who are um experiencing spiritual trauma um is that oh my gosh sometimes there's just nothing to say. Yeah. Yeah It's tough .Yeah Yeah me like sitting with them. Yeah yeah. There's nothing really I can say that it's um yeah what you went through is absolutely horrible and yeah It's real and I believe you. Yeah totally yeah yeah yeah. And it's very very dark and there are very very dark days and there will be a light day but right now it's really dark yeah. And they give you a hug. Yeah. That's a beautiful message for them. Thank you. Yeah Sure. Yeah. Um and the yeah for the people who like are noticing you said there's some like ministers and stuff that are curious about there there might be people in their community that are um like might have some trauma um I would say there's probably a lot more that you think um and um maybe even look inside yourself for what um like where have you been hurt um by religion and spirituality and what um yeah how did that affect you and um like what are you doing now to not perpetuate that um yeah and being mindful of what um sacred texts you're talking about um and how those are like how are the women portrayed and how are the um how are they being talked to and what are the power dynamics but um there's so much to think about. Yeah it's um and that it's okay like for someone um leaving the community that that for them might be the only option and it could be a really really like healing thing for them um so yeah that's I have another article that I could recommend about that um it's by Michelle Panchuk um uh and it was published in 2018 and I don't remember the title If you send us the title up included in the episode notes. Right yeah that would be another one to read um but yeah she describes that um sometimes because of the abuse they've experienced um like that religious belief is not possible anymore um they need to leave um and not yeah like blaming them or um holding judgment or negativity towards them but like releasing them and like that well there are so many beautiful places to heal that's outside of your religious community and let letting go of that kind of pride that this is the only place that there is life and like that's what I found in these stories that they found healing and um yeah beauty outside when their community said this is the absolute only place that you will be whole and safe. Right Yeah Yeah. Well thank you so much Luna for the conversation today and it sounds like your work will continue to contribute to this important conversation that is happening more and more. So we really appreciate you and your work. Thanks Miriam! And talk to our listeners and viewers next month. Bye everyone!