Season 4 Episode 4: Zoughbi Zoughbi, Director of Wiam Centre

We are privileged to be joined today by Zoughbi Zoughbi who wrote "Trauma and Resistance: Wiam Centre in Palestine."  

Read his piece here: https://jps.library.utoronto.ca/index.php/cjtmhd/article/view/42975

Abstract: There is no nation, community, or individuals without passing through conflict, suffering, stress or trauma. Suffering is very essential for our growth because it is the driving force for change via resistance and vitality. Our resistance is essential to change the situation … and no change without struggling, sacrificing and suffering. Change is not a mechanical or automatic process. It is a life story full of traumas, perseverance, struggle and resistance. As Palestinians, we have four kinds of traumas at least: first, the collective trauma of 1948 NAKBA (Catastrophe) in which 600 villages were levelled and more than 750 thousand people were kicked out from their villages in historic Palestine. Most of those people moved forcefully to live in refugee camps inside the land and in the diaspora. Currently, there are 59 refugee camps around the world, precisely in the Middle East. The population of the Palestinian people is now almost 14 million; half of them are refugees who dream of returning to their homes. Collective trauma is now as a result in what is happening in Gaza as genocide, famine, and all human rights violation unfold. The trauma has been more painful and severe in the light of international states' complicity. 

• Follow us on Facebook
• Read the Journal
• Check out Mad and Crip Theology Press

Transcript

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Mad and Crip theology podcast we are delighted and honoured today to be joined by Zoughbi Zoughbi, Director of Wiam Center in Bethlehem and a contributor to the journal issue on Trauma and Resilience we are so um privileged to have published your piece I don't think we have any announcements today, although Oscar the cat is popping in to say hi! Yes he loves to be on camera yeah yeah. So maybe we'll jump right into a conversation. Can you introduce yourself and about about the piece you wrote for the journal Zoughbi? Okay my name is Zoughbi Zoughbi and you call me by either name I am uh from Bethlehem Palestine I am the founder and director of Wiam the Palestinian Conflict Transformation Center I work in Palestine as well as Israel whenever the there is possibility I work locally regionally and internationally and our work is to address the needs of the local community through different programs for children youth women and men and of course through advocacy and through cultural exchanges some might ask why you are spread so all over and I'll say because we are a community based center and the family is a viable socioeconomic unit we work with women to enhance and to empower women through gender sensitivity gender justice gender mainstreaming and we focus in on UN 1325 Security Council of the UN which talks about women peace and security and we work in the village in the refugee camp in the city as as well as we are working with women in the local scene regional and international and we were part of many organizations that we have gender policy not only we raise awareness through seminars workshops conferences but also we are around the clock solving conflict offering psychosocial support to women and other members of the family we work also with youth you know and we try to have our youth to be assertive not aggressive and we talk about youth in Palestine as you know one third of the male population have been in jail so we try to help them to ventilate air out learn from others through a cultural exchanges work with others have training in workshops and seminars and active in conferences on interdisciplinary issues like peace building compassionate listening issues of safety and security dialogue and skills of negotiations as well as we try to work with the youth and to be trainers and to be mediators in the local scene and um you know our youth that suffer a lot nowadays especially the things you have for granted people die for it and there is a theft of spontaneity so this is the youth that we work with and many times we are not able to have all the youth who registered for workshop or for any activities because of what is going on on the ground we work with children under trauma coping and not trauma healing because we don't have the post-traumatic stress disorder it is on ongoing trauma layer after layer so we work with kids uh through providing a safe environment to air out to ventilate and through peer mediation training at schools and anti bullying so we work with the kids because they are hostages to fear and paranoia you know and they have trauma you know and the evidence of trauma is in the following you know sleeplessness um bad achievement at schools uh nightmares sleepwalk uh involuntary urination and lots of violence there so we tried through art therapy through theater through dancing through storytelling and uh through intergenerational also groups so we work with the family as a one unit because if you want to have transformation we need to address the needs of the local community as unit because the family is very important in our culture and uh you know it's very important to move and to be safe in the absence of security from the state or from uh you know uh the community alone so we also have programs on advocacy and nowadays we are active in psychosocial support because all of our people are hostages to fear people are in prison big open prison as well as small prisons uh we work uh with the community through through uh providing needs you know nowadays the unemployment skyrocketing so we try to provide at least per you know some jobs for people to keep alive and from time to time with other organization we work to help them in their health issues like to have operations or medicine and to provide some food for the needy people these are just some points about our work. 

Well thank you so much for sharing about this important work that you're doing uh I feel so humbled and honoured that you're here today to talk to us about all the ways you're helping families so thank you and and blessings to you for this work um we wanted to ask you we put out the call for this uh issue a while back um on trauma we were wondering if you could just talk to our listeners a little bit about what is the piece that you wrote for the journal about would you be able to to summarize it for us briefly? It is thank you let focus on trauma and recovery and we are talking about uh the Palestinian society which is a hostage of trauma not only children or woman but all members and I focus on the issues you know talking about the four kinds of trauma the collective trauma you know which was very clear in 1948 what happened with the Palestinians 600 Villages were leveled and 750,000 Palestinians uh were refugees and they are scattered the Palestinian dream for nationhood statehood was shuttered as early as at that time and um our dreams are scattered our people live in refugee camps in at least 59 refugee camps in the land and outside as well as um you know their economic uh wealth was uh robbed their land is taken their kids were not at school and so on the second form of trauma that we are facing intergenerational yes I was not born in 1948 I was I was born in 1963 so um my elderly my family uh tell me about what happened 1948 our friends also share with us their stories as well as I remember even not only since 1948 I remember my mother God bless her she talk about the Ottoman occupation to Palestine and of course the British mandate to Palestine and I this is a kind of intergenerational trauma I carry it with me everyone carry it and pass it to the new generation which we are not recovered and I am afraid we are not recovered from what is going on now the third one is family trauma every family in Palestine has a trauma either their son was in prison killed deported uh uh you know attacked by soldiers their land is taken settlements are built on their land they couldn't use uh the water resources they're not freely to travel here and there and all of that so every family has trauma and if you look at Gaza nowadays for example there are at least 500 families that all the members of the families were killed what will happen to any survival needless to talk about the 2 million and half Palestinians in Gaza are traumatized as a result of the genocide and in West Bank we have a slow genocide so trauma on the family community and collective the fourth trauma is individual each one according to his or her uh condition have a kind of trauma I wouldn't say every trauma is coming from the occupation but of course the occupation has its impact on it it's like collateral damage if you like and um you know this is really very important to see that each person has a different type of trauma and we don't want to compete for victimhood or compare but you know and I think all of us have been traumatized for me and this is part of the article I say suffering is very important and essential for change as a result of trauma or direct violence or indirect violence which will give me the power uh to uh pursue and persist to struggle against the occupation against the injustice so suffering is essential for resistance and vitality as Martin Luther King says if you want to change things you need to struggle to sacrifice and uh suffer so we are in that process and I look at suffering as opportunity to grow as we say the if we are not finished by an attack or a blow this will give me the opportunity to grow and to be much more powerful so the problems I look at at gifts to grow and to uh learn and to share uh about such things it is like a didactic lesson a didactic you know and um and I love to learn from peoples who suffer a lot I learn from the Civil Rights movement in North America from the South African uh struggle against aparthied in the Northern Ireland in the Latin America in Africa so we are students of history we should learn and not only say the only thing we learn from history is we have never learned from history we want to learn you know as Israel built the wall you know Israel seems forget that Berlin Wall fell down after stood tall 28 years from 61 to 89 we are telling the Israel they should learn from it you know rather than to build wall building bridges better than walls for security or safety Israel insist on building walls confiscating land demolishing houses creating facts on the ground so I feel again suffering is an opportunity uh but that doesn't doesn't mean I love suffering no we want to transform it and I love what it is in the Second Corinthians what says "We are hard pressed on every side but not crushed we are perplexed but not in despair persecuted but not forsaken struck down but not destroyed." You know all of this happened to us and uh is not easy to deal with it I have a friend I don't know who was you know kind of uh uh their grandparents were victims of the Holocaust and she told me you know there is no healing except the seventh generation right and if we say seven generation in Palestine and if we define generation by 20 or years at least we need 140 150 180 years to uh you know heal and it comes after seven generation from ending the oppression in Palestine we don't have an end to the oppression to the tyranny you know we don't have trauma healing we have we are dealing with trauma coping because we don't have the post traumatic stress disorder yeah it is an ongoing trauma layer after layer so we are not sure how long the struggle will continue will it be 100 years so far from 48 till now you know we are talking about uh 76 years I like to say how long we need more and now what is going on Gaza and the complicity uh of the world with this uh genocide so but again we have no other option except to have faith in change and to struggle for change based on you know resilience empowerment by also having solidarity from people like you without solidarity I don't think our situation will be different and uh as you know today we have a American woman who was in solidarity with the Palestinians just was killed by the Israeli uh uh Army in Nablus she was um against the the settlements is Aysenur Ezgi and it was killed in Abus mountain uh to get rid of the of the settlements supporting Palestinians and she was uh killed there so even uh sorry it is a costly solidarity I don't mean that we need uh others to be in solidarity uh with us and to be a cannon fodder but we want you know the world to know about these atrocity and here is American and probably was killed by American bullets you know and as you know nowadays they are talking about 20 billion dollar of weapons to Israel so this is really uh very sad and needless to talk about the 40,000 Palestinians who were killed in Gaza around 95,000 were wounded and many in the West Bank and there is as I mentioned slow genocide and uh the world is silent the Arab world is silent the Muslim World silent the uh there is no power for UN UN is teethless we need to see a ceasefire we need to see food going to Gaza we need to stop the polio you know there's a polio now there is a famine there you know there is no good living conditions at all no it is not safe and secure this I like what uh it said the wound is the place where the light enters and of course hopefully and we will not be pessimistic because if I am pessimistic I'm committing suicide but of course I'm not optimistic because if I an optimist I lure you uh the situation is terrible and we need to work harder and harder and ask the world to be in solidarity and we don't want them to be pro Palestinian we want them pro justice because um you know it will help us and help the others we should all together with Jews and others say Never Again and not only for Jews never again never again for any human being for any community whether in the south or north east or west third world or first world never again it should be and we need you know to deal with this a theology of hate and now we have really uh uh theology taught to uh teach younger generation to hate and to kill and to move towards liquidation and you know extermination of one nation it is not healthy for any people not only for Palestinians but also for the whole world to witness such a genocide and not to stopping it so yeah the good news that you are here interviewing me and uh helping me to spread the message of hope the message of life the atrocities to expose it because we are not here against Jews we are against the occupation the system is evil and thanks for helping me to air out to ventilate and to go on the less travlelled road for struggle based on that we want to live and celebrate life with others. 

Yeah thank you Zoughbi you covered a lot yeah um I know I know the United Church of Canada my denomination has been in partner with Wiam for many years and we learned a lot from you about how to be in solidarity and costly solidarity so so my my question for you is in I know I know Palestenians in Israelis living in midst of trauma Palestinians don't have post-traumatic because it's very present my question is how do you work towards transformation even as you're living trauma every day. Yeah that's a very difficult question and especially the matrix of control of occupation is beyond our imagination you know I have been nowadays in Michigan and traveling to Indiana um and uh many miles you know and my wife who is from this country said how do you feel I say depressed she said why I say I don't see any checkpoint you know we are accustomed to be suffering at the checkpoint so I told her you know I am exhausted because I don't see Israeli soldiers I don't at the same time really I appreciate that I don't have any checkpoint here or violence from the the military of Israel or so on so it is really in a way another how to do transformation there here is easy to talk for me about transformation that doesn't mean people here don't have any conflict but every situation is different in its context uh first of all I say instead of cursing darkness I light a humble candle instead of cursing darkness I light a humble candle to to how do I light a humble candle by offering help to the needy to the people who were in prison to the people who are without food without work who who need uh assistance in having operation or medical help and the socio psychosocial support this is we light to candle by having summer camps for kids for having training for the different segments of our society and yes and also not to teach them hate but we celebrate life we teach life because yes we opt for life despite that the occupation is bitter the occupation is ugly the occupation is evil we decided to offer it's not easy as I am saying it it a lot of courage a lot of inner struggle a lot of ins ups and downs it is not easy and I mentioned that it is daily struggle and also to do transformation we need to risk for me any day without risking is not counting of my life so uh risking by supporting uh these families who are at the front lines you know by uh saying injustices are not good in front of the Tyranny by struggling non-violently by uh learning from the struggles of the South African the Northern Island the people in Latin America the people in the north your country uh and try by disseminating and working for interfaith dialogue because we don't want to you to see religion as a source of conflict but as a resource for peace building for co-existence and also to teach us lessons how to challenge and transform the oppression you know and this is very important so transformation is not 10 minute oil change it is a life experience and you know it better than me how to transform the anger in myself everyone is angry even if we are moving away from where we are there is a lot of anger there and here you know there is a lot of frustration here I am talking with you and seeing the beauty of this country I see deers now imagine that you know I am happy to see them and to see the green around this house but at home I cannot see that I I I always hear the music of bullets the demolishing of hound houses um so I I am really um when we talk about transformation it is a lifechanging uh you know experience it is it needs a lot of inner strength it leads empowerment from people and especially I feel empowerment by people like you by your solidarity by your compassion by your um you know uh walking with us by talking our walk this is very important because solidarity will not be useful if we don't find uh a kind of partnership that you are and with your partnership you give us more meaning more depth more uh life. 

I was wondering while you were talking um would you be able to tell us a little bit about how are you taking care of yourself and your soul while you're doing this work you were saying before you're exhausted you're depressed I think a lot of people who do work to try to make the world a better place are exhausted and depressed so how do you take care of your your soul during this time? I believe let me thank you because you help me to air out yes and this is a way and safe way to deal with this because my our work and our life like you know a sponge to absorb the anger of others and anger of ourselves and when I talk with you and share with others I am ringing out this sponge uh so usually when I am there at home you know this is the first time probably in 20 years to to uh have some free time you know quote unquote free time what does it mean I don't know but you know to air out to to look and smell the roses in the streets and the villages and to have spirituality that empower us which teaches towards people to live together coexist through faith you know and of course prayers are very important I I feel you know when people I am going to be in a speaking tour here in for in the US for almost four week four weeks this helped me to cope up with uh trauma and to cope up with uh negative feelings besides at home I write I express myself I train people involved in conferences and in the direct action of nonviolence you know whether through vigils whether through um you know we are careful to talk about these nowadays because the the oppressive regime is really choking us monitoring our email our telephones uh our web page Facebook um so we are uh dealing with um ruthless uh system but also uh through dialogue with each other at home through reflecting uh through um sports or walking through um talking uh and this is very important to find ways even if you are in a prison to air out to ventilate you know there is always a window and if there is no window you will carve a window you will create a situation and I wouldn't really uh be romantic to say oh we shouldn't be angry or no anger no I legitimate anger um it is good to be angry to have holy anger to transform it to transform for example if I am at home and I see the wall next facing me what can I do with the anger when you know I'll go and have a flower and plant it plant a tree yes there is no water but we recycle water you know to do that I am angry for example when the Israeli occupation is not allowing my wife to live with me we have have been married since 1990 up this moment my wife is not a citizen and she is on a tourist visa 3 months 6 months renewable and nowadays whenever the power to be give her a visa she will come so of course we are separated we are united my uh one of my kids supposed to be married in July this year but we can't because his mother is not allowed to be here so we moved to have a small wedding here when my daughter oldest daughter uh got married it was during Covid and then during you know the occupation which was more and more sophisticating us we have a small also party here we find uh some place to to uh ventilate to air out to smile to have to be gathered with friends and relatives so you are really uh searching you are mining for any uh thing that lead you to be happy to be uh sane because the occupation push us to be insane create more hurdles uh and again we look at conflict as uh what they call it as opportunity to grow to learn and to move forward these are just some glimpses of how we do it. 

Thank you Zoughbi I know when I visited when I was um older teenager I was impressed and and heartened by especially the Christian Palestinian movement towards nonviolent resistance and I wondered if you could talk a little more about the place of nonviolent resistance and how how you see that happening in Palestine and in the world today. Wow that's a very difficult question at this moment yeah at the same time is valu valuable question for me me nonviolent is not a passive term I like how do you say it nonviolent resistance and uh sometimes people are mistaken with this term so we use the term unarmed resistance because it is a resistance and I think violence will not solve the problem and with all the might of the Israeli government with its aggression will not be able to liquidate us or exterminate us or kill us all we are 14 million people half of us living in the historic land and the other half living outside and Palestinians from the turn of the 20th century up till this moment have resorted to nonviolence and it was clear about more than 300 ways of dealing with nonviolence and more and you know it whether from the prophets from Jesus Christ glory to him from Gene Sharp from Gandhi Martin Luther King all of them they have different methods of nonviolent struggle and I think it is the only way to be based on struggle that dignify all parties and it is the only way that lead to a stable solution power and especially ruthless power could not do it power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely as well as lack of power corrupts so we need the power of truth you know you know the truth and the truth will liberate you and we need that to be our motto and a way of life and a way of struggle and I think there are many ways that we have for nonviolence and there are many ways that we work in nonviolence you know and this is very important to work in nonviolence and you know there is direct action there is diplomatic struggle that there is the building uh institution there is uh uh you know lots of events that help us to uh struggle non-violently uh especially the young people to be active in that uh and to move forward in the nonviolent uh movement uh you know um I I believe also nonviolence in order to be successful we need three dimensions of the struggle the Palestinians to continue their struggle non-violently to get rid of the occupation to deprive the Israeli government especially nowadays this rightwing government Netanyahu and smother it and then you fear to have justification and we shouldn't be naive saying oh if the Palestinian behave like that then they will have their goals achieved no whether we are nonviolent or violent the Israeli government would like to get rid of us and some even say if our prime minister was Gandhi and the religious minister was Martin Luther King and the social minister was uh Mother Teresa and so on Israel will not you know uh recognize us and will not stop its aggression so we know it is not easy nonviolent struggle by Palestinian is not enough and will not be successfully kicking out the occupation alone we need the pro peace camp in Israel pro justice although they are smaller number but they are a ray of hope we shouldn't also be kidding ourselves that the demonstrations against Netanyahu all of them are based on peace groups but some of them are there and they are a ray of hope and that doesn't mean those who are in the labour is better than Netanyahu I know that Israel as an occupier no matter who is the regime will continue so also we need to empower the peace camp in Israel which is based on struggle for equality for citizenship for two state solution or whatever is the future the third dimension and here I am talking about very important is the third party which is from States from other groups you know uh like UN from churches interfaith groups students movement I really I appreciate all the movement on the world whether in Canada or United States or Europe who really are not happy with what is going on and they would like to voice a voice against the injustices this is a ray of hope stronger aray of hope so we need the third party to be with us to empower the weak but to bring the strong to their senses and not to their knees this is the role of the third party to empower the weak and to bring the strong to their senses because we are not in interested in uh punitive justice or only or uh the justice that is based on retaliation we want restorative justice to redress the wrongs rather than revenging so and I believe at this moment we need a ceasefire immediate ceasefire uh and then to uh have uh people to feel safe to provide them with necessary things for food for water for medicine and to fight the polio and to kill the famine you know there are lots of ways and then to have confidence building measures to release the prison prisoners not to kidnap and kill and torture prisoners to release uh people who are in prison for longs of time and to embark on mutual confidence building measure and then to have the to start to jump start the peace process you know that will lead to justice we don't want it to be uh a way that the Democratic party will win the elections if say oh we need the cease fire and then sending $20 billion of weapons from the States to Israel so we need to bless things by their names to call it by their name and to be based on Truth and Reconciliation this is the opportunity now after so many killings after so many wounds after so many imprisonment after so many human rights violations it is the time to build a new approach to build trust and move forward and to lead to justice and reconciliation and this is where nonviolence will be crowned and nonviolence will be the best way to deal with aggression and injustice. Thank you so much Zoughbi yeah nonviolence and justice is our is my prayer and my hope and I will we will keep Wiam your work and your speaking this month in our prayers um so thank you so much for your time and your storytelling with us these are important um important aspects of justice we need do hear about in midst of trauma. You are welcome and thank you and appreciate what you do and uh really wonderful uh to hear you and to be reconnected with you you are my renewable source of hope thank you thank you thank you!