Season 3, Episode 5: Anita Belliveau & Conni Cartlidge

Join Amy and Miriam in their conversation with Anita Belliveau and Conni Cartlidge as they reflect on caring for their parents and all the emotions/relationship dynamics of that time of life.

We encourage you to read, reflect on, and discuss both of their pieces in the Spring 2023 issue:  https://jps.library.utoronto.ca/index.php/cjtmhd

Let us know what conversations / ideas this episode stirs up for you!

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Transcript

Welcome to the Mad and Crip Theology Podcast we're so happy that you're here with us today and today we're going to be talking with two of our writers from our caregiving issue of the Journal we have Anita and Connie so we're going to ask them to introduce themselves so Anita would you mind starting us off and you could give us an introduction? Okay my name is Anita Belliveau I live in Diep New Brunswick and I'm 66 years old and uh semi-retired and I've spent the last few years being a caregiver for my parents and um and in many times I thought that I could have done other things but the more I I realized that um I think I learned a lot during that that time and I'm really happy that you invited us to to share our experiences because I think there is a great lack of opportunity for caregivers to express themselves and to feel that somebody is there and somebody cares for what they are going through also Thank you so much for that introduction! And welcome. And Connie would you mind introducing yourself? Sure hi I'm Connie Cartilage and I live in um a small City in Manitoba and I'm the same age as Anita apparently so it's not surprising that we've got some similar experiences with um caring for our aging parents um I was a college instructor I taught early childhood education for many years and retired in 2015. and uh sort of just in the nick of time because that's right when my parents health started to decline so I was able to you know do what I could for them and um I'm also a caregiver for for my four grandchildren so um so I know about taking care of people but I was not I didn't know much about caring for aging parents that was that was give me a two-year-old I can I can care for a two-year-old aging parent this is another a whole new experience yeah so thanks for having me. Okay well thank you so much and welcome to you both. Thank you. thank you. And you both started to talk about your pieces which is what what I wonder if you can summarize you your stories for people who may not have had the pleasure of reading them yet so Connie that I'd move yours Okay um so I submitted four poems to you which were which were published um and the the first poem they were sort of in chronological order of caring mostly for my mom um so the first one was called Bedside Manner and it was a very angry letter to um ER doctors um as my mom started to have just more things go go wrong with her health she would get infections and and very serious septic infections and um and I felt very dismissed by by doctors after sitting in waiting rooms for like 10 hours with my mom slumped in a wheelchair it was just so that was um a very angry poem um then the next poem was called Owl and it was my experiences my mom my parents moved from their home to a seniors apartment and then my dad had dementia and moved into a personal care home which was attached to the seniors apartment and so Mom was alone in the seniors apartment for a few years and um she did she did have home care but um I think as most of us know home care there's only certain tasks that they do and I was there doing everything else and so that that was a poem about that period of time um and then the next one was called Sponge Bath which was my mom eventually had to move into a personal care home and this was written just in the last days before she died and it was just observing the health care workers giving my mom a sponge bath and it was very it was so touching and um so respectful and it was just um a very sad but a beautiful moment and then the last poem was called Absence and that was written after her death and and how my life is now and what her grand her great-grandchildren have to say have to say about missing her so it does end on on it's all very sad but but it ends on a positive note because my my great grandkids um really loved seeing her oh here's my cat um so that's that's the four pieces that I wrote. Yeah I really appreciated how you captured this different moments in the caregiving journey because

so many so many moments are filled with so much emotion and they carry from one to another building on each so yeah yeah I appreciated that and Anita can you can you share a bit about your piece? Okay first I'd like to uh congratulate Connie because um when I started to write the piece I was really tired and exhausted and really didn't know where to go with the piece and uh when I read Connie's poems um I really found that it was written this in a special way and I really loved that um my piece I started to write because I've been since I've been taking care of my parents I've been writing a journal so when I decided to write I decided to write in a way that I was used to because I would write constantly every night before going to bed to just try and get some relief from the emotions that I was I was feeling and that I didn't have always somebody that I could talk to and it was a good outlet so I chose the the journal uh the way that I I wrote it and um since in a period of eight years there was so much I decided to just choose certain moments or moments in time that that we had lived through and it was mostly the crisis moments or some of the crisis moments uh because those were the most difficult times and writing for me really helped me get through all of it um and by the time that the piece was ending well my dad had passed and I had gone through what was my greatest fear in life was saying my dad die and it also ended up on a kind of positive note because it was so peaceful it went in such a beautiful and peaceful way that like Connie it's it's it it's like I'm passing but it's it was a great joy to be a part of that moment um and then I just I wanted to work on the peace more but I really didn't have the time I had to take care of stuff and and but um I was really glad that I had the opportunity to share what I had to share I was scared that it would be too honest or too emotional I was really scared about that and um but that I decided to send it anyway and I'm really glad that I did mm-hmm

We're so grateful to you both that you took the chance and that you sent it in both of your pieces in because they're so beautiful and so moving and I remember when we first started receiving pieces for this journal issue I was I think I cried ever on every one I just I was I thought it blew me away how beautiful um they were and how vulnerable everybody was um being willing to be so thank you for that really appreciate it. So now we have a question for Connie so Connie uh in your poems you describe a large range of emotions like anger frustration exhaustion loneliness resentment grief and gratitude these are particular to you but are not unique in the lives of many caregivers can you talk about how you recognize these emotions and the impact on your bodymind and spirit?

It's so much but yes um I would say like the anger came I was just annoyed because because mom and I had always been I was raised in the generation that when you were 18 you moved out and you were on your own and my parents lived their lives and I lived mine not that we were on bad terms it was just very independent of each other and all of a sudden my parents were depending on me and I was like wait a minute I didn't know this was going to happen you know like and so I would get angry and frustrated because it was like I didn't yeah I didn't know this was going to happen and I'm sure they felt the same way like we don't want our daughter having to take care of us but they needed me you know and so it was I would say there was I would put anger and frustration together and it was on both sides they didn't want this and and I didn't want it but we were thrown together and I was the one that was here and um I do have siblings but they live far away and so they would certainly come for visits and they would phone my parents and and do what they could from far away but I always it always felt like sort of the non-custodial parent in a divorce you know that comes to Disneyland weekend and then the other parent gets real life like my especially my mom would get so excited if my sisters were coming to visit and she would rise to the occasion and she would be great and then my sisters would have to go home and then Mom would end up in the hospital like so there I was back in the ER with the yeah doctors so it was that it it wasn't like anyone's fault it was just like what is happening and for me I I ended up um get having depression having to get therapy having to get medication uh oh oh shucks I just spilled water hang on give me a second here oh my God Connie has a very cute cat for those who are not watching on YouTube who's giving very mischievous I think water all over my table anyway I'm not angry or frustrated I'm fine!

Um anyway so I did and another and physically what happened to me was I developed plantar fasciitis in my feet and I could hardly walk and I I think looking back I think it's not a coincidence that I developed that while I was trying to care for everybody um so then there was exhaustion um just the physical hauling devices you know my mom still really wanted to go shopping independently at Safeway and so that meant I was physically like trying to get her in and out of the car without hurting her getting the walker into the trunk or later as a wheelchair 40 below in Winnipeg look I can't do this so physically exhausting just the physical work that I didn't really know how to do like I didn't have the training I didn't know if I was hurting mom or if he was safe um and she was frustrated and and exhausted too you know um and then loneliness came because um I missed my parents for the people that they had been um I miss just having fun with my mom you know we used to especially you know when when my dad was gone her and I could take road trip and we went to her hometown one day and she told me stories about all the places she lived and and and we and she would say it too she said we never have fun anymore um because I was too busy doing all the tasks so it it was lonely there was loneliness for me and for her as well um and I had gone through some changes in my life and found myself living alone too and so I was going through a big change myself and still trying to support mom so and then resentment again it goes back to the anger and frustration and just like ah and um I was still trying to care for my grandkids as well and my my mom would get mad she would say to me I'm jealous of the grandkids you spend so much time with the grandkids you should be with me and and looking back now I I understand that but I also my kids were depending on me to help with the great with my grandkids and I and I needed to be with the grandkids so I had some young happy life around me too you know like they lifted my spirit so so resentment you know we ended up mom and I would start resenting each other for not doing the right thing or being enough and then grief of course um there was that anticipatory grief and I and I think you've probably had this Anita where you you're in the hospital with your parent you think thing your final goodbyes yeah and then they pull through yeah they get better they get better over and over and it's like you want them to but you I would think how many times can I do this? Uh you know um and and so then the gratitude came that I was with them in the end um and I could comfort them and that their their passings were peaceful well my mom had covid but I I was able to be right with her and hold her hand and and the staff told me that she calmed down as soon as I got there so that gratitude of this was the actual ending it wasn't this issue or isn't she and then she was at peace and and I could be too even though missing her um so um so yes all of this did lead to depression and a need for therapy and a need for medication for a while I'm I feel like I'm I've accepted it and and we we miss mom but we all can laugh about things that she did and my grandkids you know make pictures for her and hang them up and and you know and they'll say to me I miss her you know when I say I miss her too like now we can there's that gratitude of having so many good memories with her too which was hard it was hard to remember those things in the middle of the caregiving but um now that there's time to stop and reflect it's like yeah we we really had some some good times and um uh so I gradually I found my emotions I I was coming to some acceptance of things um when mom went into the personal care home but six months after she went in that's when covid hit and so she was settling in nicely she was a very sociable person she was making friends and then covid hit and there were so many restrictions here uh there were periods of time where no one could even leave their rooms I couldn't see her I had to wave at her window um and so she would get upset because she would say well you used to always just drop in on me and and I and I could it was easy I could pop in and say how are you doing mom you know once covid hit there was the whole protocol of you know answering the questions and the masks and the gowns and the gloves and the you know and then and then in the end she died of it anyway you know so that um that that was that was hard covid definitely made everything harder and lonelier for everybody and um so I don't know where I'm going with that but in terms of effects like that I it might have been easier because then like even my sisters couldn't visit her then I was the primary caregiver I was the only person that could go in so even though they might have wanted to go they couldn't they wouldn't allowed it was just anyway thank you so thank you so much for that Connie and I've I've heard others whose parents passed away during the pandemic say exactly the same kind of things that you're saying now it was so hard and it was um I heard I've had one person describe it as a lasting wound for them that they weren't able to be there as much as they wanted to because of covid so yeah we appreciate you sharing that with us thank you. Thanks.

Yeah thank you covid was devastating changing purple people in long-term care  places and those of us who had loved ones in long-term care places for sure

Anita is your piece we notice similar emotions of words but we also noticed some feelings of guilt among caregiving and we wondered if you might feel able to talk about those talk about um things you might have done differently or cared for yourself differently 

so that um because we know feelings of guilt as a care-receiver, I can have those feelings and they can just eat you up right?

Well first I'd like to say that there's a lot of things that Connie mentioned that really touched a nerve with me because uh when she mentioned about the the anger and the frustration that having to take care of a parent um I had the same anger of all of a sudden finding myself the parent and the caregiver and the person who carries all of the responsibility I had been very ill for 20 some years with Lyme disease I had been in a wheelchair for many years and had a walker and was finally starting to be able to live a little bit of my life so I I'm fairly angry that all of a sudden I couldn't concentrate on my my healing myself that I I had to stop and take care of my my parents or kind of try and balance both trying to keep on keep my health and not let this destroy my health and take care of my parents and in my family there were people that were living away um there wasn't many of us around I was around and I happened to be the person that I guess my parents trusted most and they always turned to me for answers and for uh their problems and and whatnot and um like Connie I I seeked out some therapy so that I would able to manage my problems but it was fairly heavy and it was it was really demanding and like she said when you're you're dealing with the situation you're taking care of people who are ill that they're losing their autonomy they're losing their independence they're losing everything that they had and they can't live the way they would want to live it's not like being responsible for a child who is discovering the world it's being responsible for people who are um who are facing the end of their lives and the end of their independence and the possibility of losing their partners so it it's really difficult um and it's difficult for them to find themselves uh having to be cared for by their daughter and it's very difficult for a daughter to become their parents somewhat and and I was the one receiving all of the emotions all of their reactions and trying to manage all the needs and you can get pretty angry when you don't have time to take care of your own needs and then when you get angry and then you have a softer moments with them but then you can have guilt too um I have good friends and I wrote and I had my therapist and at one point there was this organization in Moncton who decided that they were there their their mandate was to accompany people who are dying but all of a sudden they discovered that those people who are taking care of those who are dying need help and I had sessions during the covid for about eight months once a month and they kind of taught us how to take a breath and demand that we have time for ourselves and to take care of our health and that was really and it then I found myself in a group a small group would share and this is why I I really congratulate you on on doing this because I think that's that the missing piece in society is there is nobody to help people who are helping others and some are working they have careers they still have children and they have parents to take care of there is nowhere to turn to that people can say okay uh you need stuff uh government or financial or legal or whatnot there is an enormous lack of support in in every way and it's very easy to feel guilty about thinking I would like to have some time to myself I would like to be able to study or take classes or volunteer in all the life that I had before because I I was a musician and I haven't played guitar in about five years I'm a classical guitarist and I haven't I haven't taken my guitar out so I I sacrificed a lot I I gave quite a bit of myself um at times I was angry but today I think I've made peace with that and I still have my mom but I think I've been able to develop with her a style of communication where I can share too that I can tell her more you know what this is not easy for me it's not easy for you but it's not easy for me and I think that's that's very important to be able to express in a polite and respectful way of the boundaries of okay I I know this is hard for you but this is not easy for me either and I think my mom is more able to listen now that my dad passed she doesn't have to look at him suffer and I don't have to look at him suffer either and when she starts talking about her emotional needs I can also say okay well when you do this it's kind of hard on me and I need you to know that so that I can set boundaries and that she understands that I'm just not that place where you dump everything and that I'm I'm a human being and I I have needs and I have emotions too. Mm-hmm.

Yeah setting boundaries is always challenging but I hear you both talking about the burnout that can come with caregiving and with 

which happens more when you aren't able to set boundaries. Yes, but for sure for sure it is one of the most important things I think um the organization was Hospice Mountain and I think the one thing that they showed me the most was before being at the limit to tell the people for which you are for whom you're taking care of to tell them listen I need to take care of my health I need to take a step back I need some time I need to before I get to a point where there's no return and then I won't be able to take care of you.

Um thank you Anita.This this isn't a question on our list but it came to me so I'm wondering about listening to both of your stories I wonder how these experiences

shape how you receive care when when if you need more care in the future?

Connie I see you smiling and nodding so maybe you can jump in well of course I think I'll be the perfect parent who knows exactly when they have to sell their own house. Yeah, yeah, selling the house is a great

experience yes so like I I am trying to think I mean my parents were very organized and when doctors said they needed to move out of their home they knew where they wanted to move they knew what nursing what personal care home they wanted to go to but when it actually is happening it's not so easy so that's why I'm kind of laughing because I I have a little house it's all on one floor like everything is just on one floor it would be easy to put in a ramp to the door if I like when I when I bought this house I tried to think about the future right now I I'm independent but um but I'm 66 you know um and so I have tried to plan for that that that this house could be accessible for a long a fairly long time and it has two bedrooms so if I needed like live in care there is the second bedroom um and I so logically I'm thinking this all through but I don't know how I'll actually be when the time comes and then I'll try I've tried to talk to my tried to talk to my kids and say you know let's if you're concerned about me let's talk about it like if you're seeing something that I'm not let's talk about it um but uh you know I I it's easy to think about like theoretically if this happens but I don't know how I'll probably be just terrible when it comes we'll see I'll let you talk to my kids in 10 years and see what they say

Well um you know one of the things when you spend a lot of time in a long-term care home at level three four you see a lot of stuff every day and uh I've I've had a lot of time to think and uh ponder about getting older and I've been living alone for a long time I've been separated for a long time and living alone don't have any children and I've always been able to take myself out of place and bring myself to another place by myself very independent and and um and I look at the future I live in a condo it's all one level I have a basement that I go to but I would need to go to um and I think about the future with the attitude that I will take myself out of my house before somebody has to pry me out of it I know that it's not going to be easy but I think about that a lot I think about uh my my next move because what I kept telling my my parents were organized they had a great setup with um a house that they had built a retirement home they had this couple who lived right beside them and they were you took them like their own parents and they were there every day they would call them they would bring them out they would they were they're like their children should have been and um but they really did not want to leave their house and their home that they had built and because they didn't they put themselves in danger and like I kept telling them if they had decided to move prior to when my dad fell and broke a limb it would have been a new beginning and this is what I'm looking towards myself as okay I just renovated my condo I'm 66 and the furniture that I bought I know I can bring into an apartment and I'm preparing myself in that way because what I would like is to have a new beginning again in a new home that maybe have to be an apartment but that's okay I'd rather have a new beginning than be headstrong and stay in my home until I have a a dramatic ending in my home and then I have to go somewhere else and then yeah I think I'd rather do that so I'm but I don't know how I'm gonna gonna be we don't know how we're gonna react I know some of the things I think the reason why my parents were so respectful of me and they were so trusting of me is that they knew how ill had I had been and that I had lost everything in my life except my house at one point and they knew that I knew what they were feeling and going through except that I was young I had some hope and I was thinking well I'll try even though the doctor said not giving me any hope I had hope and I had decided that I would I will I will get better and work at it um but I'm hoping that since I know all about loss I'm hoping that I'll be able to manage through the losses that come with getting older it's there's so many losses that's the thing yeah yeah starting with friends and brothers and sisters and parents and sisters yeah. Thank you.

I'm listening to both of you I I think um it's amazing that you're thinking ahead about some of these things um I've been fascinated lately with the have you ever heard of Swedish death cleaning I'm not sure if you've heard of it but it's this uh it's so cool it's like um basically I'm probably butchering all the sort of beautiful intricate ways you're supposed to do it but the in a nutshell you hold an object that's in your home and you ask yourself how will this affect my family after I'm gone and so this idea of downsizing and being thoughtful about even just like the stuff now stuff that we have and pets and all these things are is just so important. Yeah and you know what I I I look at my parents in the last since from 66 to when my dad passed he was 91 and then my mom is 92 right now and you know all of a sudden I I saw them and I listened to them say many times you know what we don't need that we don't need to buy that and I I find myself except for my renovation of course I find myself feeling many times um you know what I don't need that I don't need to buy that I think the needs change as we grow older and we we get to the core of who we are and what we feel and it's it's clear in your mind when you get older of who you are if you want to make peace with life because getting older is a privilege I almost died when I was in my 30s and I have a brother who died of cancer at 45 and and I keep saying to people yes we have wrinkles and yes we will lose our autonomy and Independence but it's a hell of a lot better at 80 than at 30. That's it.

We agree with that one yeah!

We wanted to ask you both uh about your feelings about communal care so how do you both imagine communal care uh you write so poignantly in your pieces that caregiving is often on the shoulders of one person to do also how how can others care for caregivers what do you think Connie? I yeah I I struggled with this with this question I don't we're so in our society so isolated in our nuclear families and um it it's this it's sort of the same you know young parents with children and they don't have other people to help out they're raising their kids on their own you know um and then it happens at the end of life where there's yeah people alone um and I I don't know I mean I have really really good friends that have been a great support to me but I never ask them to help take care of my parents like that never occurred to me they were more when I wasn't with my parents than I could go to my friends and and their support was so much and what I do what I sort of hope could happen is that having both my parents move into personal care home like you know a large institution even though it's in our small town and that's where they wanted to go it and coveid hit and people were dying left and right and I I would prefer I know that there's newer models where it's smaller almost like group homes with it with a few people looking together with some support workers and but you still have some privacy and you know um and that would be as a caregiver that would have helped me to know that my parents were in you know sort of a small safe home with some other people that they could hang out with a bit but still have their own have someone to help care for them um and that would have helped me because then I could have maybe done more of the fun stuff with them or you know instead of the buying a pack of Pepsi that mom needs you know um so some sort of small group homes or family groupings for people where they still have privacy and dignity and all of that but also have care because home care is so limited what it does at um so if people do have home care like there needs to be better home care there needs to it's got to be more than someone just coming in and making sure your parent gets their pills yeah like uh there's so many other things and what they do is important but they can't do more than what they're told to do otherwise they get into trouble and and I know mom had different home care workers that would say oh I'll just do this for you you know I don't mind Mary and then the other workers would get upset because she was doing too much right made them look bad I don't know and so I feel like if there was better care for the people that needed it then the caregivers would not have such a burden short of all of us living on a commune together or going back to large families living together I and that is something that some people do they it's it's multi-generational homes and stuff I find that's more from different cultures not so much in this white middle class culture that I've grown up in um but I my kids and I have talked about that that wouldn't it be great if I just lived upstairs and they lived downstairs and you know we could all help each other out and um but the funny thing is when when my mom when I was living in my apartment and I said to mom do you want to come and live with me and she said no so like where our society is so much about independence you know and um I think we need to shift a little bit to more interdependence and helping each other out but how that happens I don't know I wish I did so. And what do you think Anita?

I really don't know what the solution is but I think they're um I think there's a shift towards sending uh having more home care and like every decision the government makes they kind of make a decision and start up a program without it being organized well and I think there's a lot of places where that can be improved um a lot of places where it can be improved I think there needs to be more support some kind of entity in the government where there's like a line of social workers and psychologists where somebody can just call and say okay today is really overwhelming I need somebody to talk to and that that could be offered because we save a lot of money to the government by doing what we do we save a lot of money and I also think that there should be some kind of credit um that you could you could give to caregivers um like for yoga or for meditation or stuff that causes sometimes is people cannot afford to do so that they can help themselves so that they can help other people um I think I think North American society is different than many European countries and I think that or African countries or um I think we have a mentality that older people are not valued and I think that in in other cultures they don't have that I think this is a North American culture and what I think that needs to change that there's a need for the attitude towards getting older is not worse than being young it's a different life it's a different there's different teachings that come with every every age that we we live through and I think there's a lot of work to be done with the government but with society also but with so many people aging and a lot less younger people to take care of seniors I think it's going to be a challenge it's going to be a major challenge the next 10 to 20 years with all the baby boomers I think it's going to be a major challenge.

Yeah I think you both raised and it's come to the question of what do we see as a valuable life? Is it only a productive life then how does the capitalistic world carry on  or is it an abundant life in the language of Christ where people have yeah God sends you resources and people and community and the sacred

yeah so I think you both raising those important questions and critiques

and I think society and church will have to continue to talk about.

We at the end of every podcast we wanted to open it up for you to ask questions of each other if you have any so maybe Anita do you have any

further questions or comments for Connie?

Um well I think as a society we have some work to do in finding value and worth in each individual and less in prizes and titles um I think the basis for a society is where everybody is a human being and everybody is valuable and um I'm really hoping that there will be a system to take care of seniors that will be a little bit more human and maybe intergenerational than what we've had I think there's a lot of work to be done um with the younger generations like I live in a condo village and we used to be for the 20 years we only had people 55 and over well there's a lack of of houses being sold and all of a sudden those condos with three bedrooms and two bedrooms were seeing children and families moving into our village and some people were really angry at that and just the way you we didn't have a children and and all of a sudden I said well you know what that was the way life was once maybe now we need to learn a new way of life and those families who are moving here some of them are have immigrated from countries and they don't know anything maybe we can bring them something help them find ways to re-establish themselves and and make it easier for them to become citizens in our country and I think I think that's where I would wish that our society would go. And Anita did you have any questions that you wanted to ask Connie was there anything about her piece that um was interesting or that you wanted to just poke her a little bit more about?

Um I think she did a very good job uh with all the emotions one of the emotions that you never mentioned was fear you never mentioned in all the emotions that you you mentioned and you you talked about you never mentioned fear and at times I was so fearful of not being able to cope and go on and and I didn't know if I had to if I had it in me to to accompany my dad through his dying and how was I was going to cope with my feelings at the end I was I was going to take care of my mom while I was taking of care of me and taking care of dad was dying and and one of the feelings that I had a lot was fear the many times that I was in the hospital or I was with my dad and he almost died like this like you said so many times that you get to wonder how many times can I go through this roller coaster and survive but you never mentioned fear and I have to say that fear was one of the emotions that I I had a lot of. Hmm that's interesting I never thought of that actually I think for me um yeah all those times those you you called it the boats with death I think in your piece all the times that I thought mom and mom or dad or both of them were going to die um I think I just kept saying to myself I can I can handle this I can handle this I can do this I think I just kept talking to myself but for me I think fear came out more in um the sadness and depression and so maybe it's just another word for for fear of course I I I was afraid that I wasn't doing the right thing and so I guess I just for me it came out in in the frustration and you know like I can't do enough you know I I think fear transformed into depression for me okay yeah if there was a one point I remember it was maybe maybe about five weeks before my dad finally passed um I just panicked and I I really froze and I really didn't want to go back I didn't want to go see him I was scared that um I was I was scared of what was waiting for me and uh and I was really scared and and all of a sudden it took me about a week and a half to two weeks and one day I woke up and I thought okay I can do this but there were many many times when I I feared not not having the strength to go on and have both of them and it was yeah I had a lot of fear.

Yeah, lots of emotions. Connie did you have any questions that you wanted to ask Anita? Um the one that really stuck out for me is is you talked about the need for honesty and uh like my parents tried to hide so much from me because they didn't they didn't want me to worry or they just didn't want me to know they were very very active they played tennis three times a week till they were 80. they didn't want anybody to know that they had anything wrong with them and they both had multiple they had heart issues they had spinal issues they had colon cancer and until I was going to doctor's appointments with them because I they needed me to I had no idea and that if anything scared me that was it it was like are you not me yeah and so when you talked about that need for honesty like please just be honest with me and yet I understand if I've had things go wrong I often will kind of I don't want anyone to know you know um so I I can I understand it but I that just really not so much a question but that just really resonated with me that that was a really hard thing if people aren't honest and open like nobody knows what to do you know. Um yeah that's one of the things that was really frustrating for me is that I kept telling my parents if you don't tell me I don't know what I'm coping with yeah if if you're not honest with me I don't know what to do because I don't know what kind of situation I'm dealing with and but I had since I had been really ill I knew how humiliating it is to not be able to manage what I have been able to do before and I knew that humiliation and the frustration and the hurt and the anger that comes with that but I really wish that they could we could have talked more at the beginning at the end with my dad and with my mom um I was able to kind of teach them that it's okay to open up about feelings because um people of that generation they never talked about their feelings and being a parent you don't talk about your feelings to children you just you don't do that okay and that was one of the things that I needed a lot and it was for them to be emotion not only honest with what they were going through with the physical uh diseases and pains and everything but also how they felt about what was going on instead of living out or acting out the emotions that we should maybe talk about emotions and maybe that's why yeah I had gone through illness and I had learned at first I I couldn't talk about anything but I had learned that that was not a winning combination that was a good way the better way to do it is to admit that we have feelings and that is where I found my strength but I was also depressed at time and tired and yeah. Yeah yeah.

Well this has been such a rich conversation filled with experiences of vulnerability and truth-telling so I'm we're grateful to you both Connie and you Anita for sharing some of your stories with us today and with those who who listen to listen to your stories so thank you and we hope you have your voices again in the Journal one day. Thank you so much for doing this I it's greatly appreciated. Yeah I I agree this has just been really a privilege to be able to share and and hope that you know if if other people are going through this right now that they know that you know we're all together you know like we're all trying our best yeah yeah thank you but you know what I'll just say this before I end if I can um I think all of everything that I did for my parents now my my dad is not here and I'm really grateful that I had all the time that I spent because it was very hard time but there were really intimate and and loving moments and I would not give those for the world.

Perfect place to end see all our listeners next time!