Season 2, Episode 14: Daryna Skybina on Karma and Trauma Informed Care

On this episode, Amy and Miriam speak with Daryna Skybina about her paper published in the Fall 2022 issue of The Canadian Journal of Theology, Mental Health, and Disability: A Trauma-Informed Approach to Discussing Karma in Buddhism. You can find more about Daryna's psychotherapy practice at www.darynaskybina.com or via Instagram @darynaskybinapsychotherapy Read the full paper here: https://jps.library.utoronto.ca/index.php/cjtmhd/article/view/39547

For closed captions, watch the episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/dp3lLsFWQTQ

Here's an abstract: In recent years there has been a rise of individuals from Western cultures turning to Eastern spiritual traditions, including Buddhism, for mental health support. Given the prevalence of trauma, it would be helpful for these communities to discuss spiritual teachings in a trauma-informed manner. Some teachings, including the teaching of karma, have at times been taught through a lens that stigmatizes trauma survivors. Karma is a complex topic, yet a crucial element of Buddhist ethics and morality. This paper is a preliminary theoretical exploration of how the teaching of karma in Buddhism can be examined in a manner that considers the complexity of trauma. It also discusses how a care provider can turn to the Buddhist teaching of skillful compassion to help them better practice trauma-informed care.

Some resources Daryna recommends:
Love and Rage: The Path of Liberation Through Anger by Lama Rod Owens https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/608716/love-and-rage-by-lama-rod-owens/
When Bad Things Happen to Good People by Harold Kushner https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/96404/when-bad-things-happen-to-good-people-by-harold-s-kushner/9781400034727

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Transcript

Welcome to this episode of the Mad and Crip Theology Podcast, Amy and I are delighted to welcome to Daryna here, who wrote for the fall issue of the journal about trauma and the Buddhist concept/notion around karma. So we'll-- we're delighted to be in conversation with you today. And before we get into introductions, Amy has a quick announcement.

Yes, I do, so just quickly, we just wanted to remind our listeners that our-- the spring issue of the Canadian Journal of Theology, Mental Health, and Disability will be out on April the 1st. So, we have picked April Fool's Day as our spring launch date every year, and, um, so you can look forward to seeing that in the issue, um, topic for the spring is caregiving and care receiving. And I might add, just quickly, when Miriam and I were thinking about this topic, we were a little concerned about whether or not anybody would want to write-- like is this something that resonates with people, are people thinking about care, you know, it's always like the editor's dilemma, like-- should we-- what should we choose for an issue, and we have had an overwhelmingly good response, and some really thought-provoking pieces that will be a part of the issue, so. We are very excited about that-- about bringing that to you.

But for now, we're focusing on the last issue, so, Daryna, we wondered if you could tell our listeners and viewers a bit about yourself?

All right, hi, thank you very much for the introduction Miriam and Amy, um, so hi everyone, my name is Daryna, I am-- I've like just finished my MPS program-- like the degree requirements for my MPS program-- in the Buddhist stream at Emanuel College with the certificate of spiritual care and psychotherapy, and I'll be graduating this May, um I am currently-- I'm a qualifyed registered psychotherapist with the CRPO, and I am just slowly starting up my private practice, um, I've been an MPS student since 2019 and it's like a great honour to be published in your journal, and I'm sort of really excited about today, and to share a little bit more about my paper with you.

Well we're so happy that you're here, Daryna, and, um, it's so fun to see, uh, how much you've grown, um, over the years, because Daryna was in my class that I taught, it seems like eons ago, um, she was a part of one of my small groups, so it's just been such a delight, and just an honour to see you grow and, um, to see all this amazing work that you're doing.

Oh yeah, yeah, I forgot you-- I mean I remember, but yes, you were the TA for the intro to counseling course when I was in there 2019.

Yeah, yeah.

And then, also, you were my instructor for, uh, where-- the course where this paper originated from, so.

Yes, yes.

Great to see how things evolve over time for sure.

Totally. But we were hoping that you could, um, to get us started, you could read the opening vignette from your paper, just to help our listeners understand, um, and contextualize the problem that you are seeing that you were hoping to-- to contribute to finding some solutions for.

All right, for sure, so before I read it though, I do want to acknowledge that this story is based, um, on a fictional character, and the fictional character's story is based on a combination of stories of several individuals, and this is done to preserve confidentiality, so, uh, the individual's name is Sony, but, um, it's not about one particular person. Um, right.

So after experiencing interpersonal trauma, Sony sought support from her spiritual community. Her spiritual Community could be considered an example of a new age spirituality movement, yet it bases its values from Eastern spiritual traditions. The community had previously been a great source of hope for her, and thus, she confided in some leaders of the community about abuse-- her abuse, like the abuse she experienced-- unfortunately, she was met with many invalidating comments that led her to feel responsible for her trauma. For instance, she was told her experience was a karmic lesson, and a consequence of bad karma from a past life, and that she should be grateful for having the opportunity to work this karma off. Any attempt to stand up for herself was only met with an explanation of how she was misunderstanding spiritual teachings. Though these statements seem to have some foundation in eastern spiritual teachings, they were oversimplified and not trauma informed.

Thank you so much, such a powerful narrative of an example of the abuse, spiritual abuse people can face. So we're-- and this is a big question, but we know you-- you are the one to help us with this, so can you give a very basic summary of how you understand karma, it's relationship to trauma and abuse of the-- of the trauma concept.

Yeah, for sure, it is a very big question, um, and, uh, but I will do my best to make this as brief as possible, so, um, karma in general is quite-- like, it's very difficult for me to give one sort of great concrete definition, just because there are so many different definitions within different spiritual traditions, it is primarily based off of different ears-- uh, Eastern spirituality, so in like, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and other spiritualities from-- that originated from that, uh, area. So, um, I will acknowledge that I'm not going to give the full encompassing definition of that, but essentially, sort of like the overarching theme that I've kind of gathered from literature, is that, uh, Karma's understood to be, uh, sort of like a guiding moral law or principle that sort of says that you will reap the consequences of the intention, or like, the action that you do, and like the moral valence with which you do it. So, the idea is, you know, if you do things with good intentions, there will be good consequences from that, if you do things with bad intentions, um, or like bad things, then there will be bad consequences from that. Um, now in society, I think more of like a general understanding of it, as-- like as there has been a lot more, sort of, adaptation of different, um, Eastern spirituality terms into Western society, there's been, sort of, I believe like, a simplistic view of karma, which is kind of like, you know, you do bad things, bad things will happen to you, do good things, good things will happen to you. Um, but that's not completely necessarily wrong, it is a bit over simplistic, and, um, it's definitely cannot-- like it can be misused, um, and it's-- where it becomes, in my opinion, a little bit dangerous, is when we use it to sort of blame people for things, like for bad things that happen to them, so we say, oh, like, in the context of Sony, like this was your karma, like the abuse was your karma. And this can lead to a lot of blame, and shame, and-- it's just not a productive way to help somebody, or support somebody, um, like from the perspective, especially of a trauma survivor, um, and, so that's where it can kind of be misunderstood, um, however, though, as I did a bit more sort of research into the term, because of this problem I was sort of inspired to look further into what do-- do like-- what does the Buddhist-- because my studies are primarily Buddhism, so I was interested in what the Buddhist Doctrine does say more about karma, and a few things that I mainly learned is that not everything can be explained by karma. It is one of the guiding principles of things, and is one factor that can influence events in people's lives, but is not the only thing that can do that, um, so we can't necessarily conclude that something is someone's karma, and we don't know what is someone's Karma. We don't know exactly the cause of an event in their life. Um, another thing is that Karma doesn't operate on equivalency principles, so it's not-- like if I steal a book, someone will steal a book from me, that's not necessarily how this will operate. Um, and then the context of abuse, for example, it's sometimes we'll say, um, well if you-- you-- like if you're abused in this lifetime, you must have been abused in a previous lifetime. Um, and sort of another thing is that, um, I just want to note, I realized I didn't mention, is that for the listeners that are not that familiar with Buddhism, or Eastern spirituality traditions, is that there is this concept of reincarnation in these traditions, and so the accumulation of karma is thought to like, let's say, like you're good intentions, the good consequences are said to kind of accumulate and transition throughout lives. So it is possible-- like, the idea is possible, that is something's happening to you in this life, it can be explained by something in the past. However it's also very difficult to explain, and it's not necessarily something anyone in the human realm can do, explain as to why something happens. We can't pinpoint this to that, um, so that's sort of very important to note for, um, what I found very interesting, and sort of relieving, in the-- in the doctrine, that there is this acknowledgment that-- that's not the intention of karma, is to sort of analyze that way, a better sort of intention of that is it is to use as a guiding principle in everyday life. Um, you know, do things with good intentions, essentially, I think is the better lesson to draw from that rather than looking to blame. Um, and, so yeah. I hope that answers your question to some degree.

Yeah, that's very helpful, um, it's very helpful, and-- and I can see-- I can see resonances from other traditions, I come from a Christian background, and I have been told that and I have CP because my parents have sinned either in this life or another life, um, so it's-- it's interesting how-- how-- yeah, it's the type of abuse that can happen in so many various contexts. So thank you for explaining the other lives concept so-- so helpfully.

Yeah, and thank you so much for sharing that Miriam, and I am so sorry if people have said that to you, because it is-- it is a similar sort of kind of blame, it may be in a different-- like, different terminology we use, but the idea is the same, of well it's your fault, you know, and that like, oh you should-- you know-- the idea of you're burning off your current karma, and that's-- it is-- if the survivor, in my opinion, believes that, and somehow that's helpful for them, that's one thing, but it is also not one's place to say that to anybody, uh, because truthfully we don't know. We don't know, kar-- like, context of karma, karma is a very complicated topic, there is no one single consensus on how it operates, um, and if it's used to blame, that doesn't seem a productive use of the term.

Right, that's so important, thank you.

And Daryna, I wanted to ask you, just before we move forward, is, um, there-- you said in the, sort of your opening vignette, about the concept of working karma off.

Right.

Can you explain, what-- how does one work karma off?

That's a good question, um, I think like, so-- I don't know that much in terms of the actual doctrinal reasoning from it, but what I have heard in spiritual communities, is this idea that like if you've accumulated bad karma, you kind of have to live through it, or like, um-- and I like I think there is some promise of it in regular in traditions as well, of like you're going to have to like experience the experiences you have to experience in life, and that kind of takes away that karma, so you no longer have to like-- let's say you've done something bad in your past life, that idea, is that you have that bad karma that you have to work off. And that like this experience has done that for you. So in that idea of like, be grateful that that's what this happened, um, whether that's right or wrong, I don't know, I don't-- that's not, I think for anyone to really judge, whether that's-- or that I don't know if we can even know that, right, because if we don't know what event caused what event, it's hard for us to pinpoint exactly what will sort of compensate any sort of karma, it's hard for us to know exactly why someone's experiencing something, so it's really hard, I think, to make that blanket judgment if that's exactly what's happening, if someone believes that, then that's, like, that's helpful for them, then that could be really helpful, um, but I think the issue is like, with the imposition of this is why this happened to you, does come more like a blaming stance, even if the intention is good, um, it can be received by a trauma survivor as blaming, um, because they just went under something-- through something horr-- especially like in the context of interpersonal trauma and abuse, um, but I think for a lot of different traumas this can apply, but they just went through something horrible, and then I-- the last thing they might want-- they might already be blaming themselves, um, which often happens with trauma, and the last thing they might need at that moment is for someone else to keep blaming them for that. Or tell them to look for gratitude, and find some sort of grain of like, oh this was so good for me that this happened, um, at that moment the person, I believe, has a right to feel the like the heavy emotions that are accompanying trauma, and not have to be told to look for gratitude.

Yeah, yeah, for sure, and thanks for that, that was a really good segue into our next question that we had for you, um, because Sony in your vignette has gone through some, maybe like, interpersonal trauma, domestic violence, and, um, she's been through a lot, so would you be able to tell us, um, what are-- what are some elements of trauma-informed care that you could use, uh, when-- if you were working with Sony, or if you maybe, uh, knew her as a friend?

Yeah, for sure, um, so I think like-- I think a different reas-- like different literature would sort of outline them differently, like if I were to label them exactly, but in general, um, just as like, some guidelines for trauma-informed care, and things like, I've kind of picked up from my practice, um, and just my experiences in life, um, so the idea is essentially to make the trauma survivor feel safe and empowered. Um, there's kind of different approaches, one, I would say, is like non-pathologizing approach to what's happening with them, so understanding that a survivor's symptoms are adaptive. They're adaptive because they have served them a purpose. So if someone's experiencing a lot of fear, or someone's experiencing, um, like avoidance of something that's because they're-- these symptoms have had a purpose in the past. So understanding that they're not doing something-- there's nothing wrong with the trauma survivor, in fact, their body learned to cope with a very difficult situation, now they're in a different environment, right? And they can readjust, and that will take time. So understanding that, I think is like that non-pathologizing approach is important, um, that non-blaming approach to understanding, they're also not responsible for what happened, um, and especially in the context of, like, interpersonal violence I think that's really important, um, sometimes there is some sort of blame to survivors in terms of like, oh, why didn't you do that, why didn't you run away, why didn't you, I don't know, fight back, things like that do come up, um, but I think it's important to understand in this context, that when your fight or flight mode is activated, you are-- you can react until in like the freeze, fight, free-- uh, fun, um, one of those basic kind of reactions, your prefrontal cortex is not working you can't make logical decisions, really, as you normally would otherwise. So understanding that the survivor doesn't really have much choice of what they actually do in that moment when this trauma is happening, um, so I think that will help with removing shame and blame from the trauma survivor. Um, and also just ensuring that when you are working with them, especially if you are in the context of a care provider like a therapist, or a spiritual care provider, um, doing your best to minimize the power dynamic. Already inherently in those relationships there is a bit of a power dynamic, therapists in general are viewed as authority, so, um, seeing them as-- seeing the survivor as the expert of their own life instead of telling them what to do, having a consistently, like, collaborative relationship with them, asking them, oh, like, does this sound right? Does this make sense? Am I understanding you correctly? Rather than having a more prescriptive approach to things, I think would be very important. So, um-- I mean and in general, just, when you're communicating with them, being validating of their experience, which kind of goes with the whole non-blaming approach, or like not pathologizing approach, like that makes sense that you're, like, thinking this, it makes sense you're feeling this, you've been through something awful, just validating your experience, a lot of trauma survivors have trouble doing that, especially like when they first get out of a traum-- traumatic situation, it can be difficult. So yeah, I think those are kind of the main concepts, there might be more that I missed, but I think that encompasses it pretty well.

Yeah, thank you so much, that's really helpful to-- to people who are listening, and to-- to myself, I'm learning so much. Um, so, in your paper, you move from the story of Sony to-- to this rich ending of collective trauma, which-- which I think is being talked more and more about today, but with various, um, marginalized communities like indigenous communities, war-torn countries, all those groups of people facing collective trauma. But it's I went off topic there. But, um, we wondered how you understand collective karma-- not trauma, collective karma.

Right, okay, yeah, so, collective karma, um, so, I kind of-- in my paper, I integrated in a way, um, in terms of trauma, which I think could be like relevant to all these groups of people who are undergoing like a collective problems, um, idea of like trauma also being a collective problem, because this idea that if we just, um, we're-- like talk about a surv-- like a trauma survivor's karma, we are solely putting responsibility on that person, um, and we're just working with what's going on in their life, which to some degree we can look at it as person by person basis, however, we also have to acknowledge that the prevalence of trauma is very high. Prevalence of abuse is very high. This has been something that's been happening in our world, I would dare say Millennia, right? And this is so-- this maybe is a bigger issue, um, so the idea of collective karma, like with individual karma, is not to blame any sort of group or people, to be like okay, well you guys did something bad, and this is why this is happening to you. Um, I think that would not be a productive way of using that, and probably not-- based on my research, not a correct way of doing so either. But this idea and acknowledgment that we do have a collective responsibility to act against injustice, and that injustice is a collective responsibility, it's not the responsibility of let's say, one group of people necessarily, not one person, in the context of, like, a single trauma survivor it's not just their responsibility to do something-- like yes, it's their responsibility to take charge of their own healing, and go their path, we can look at it that way isolated, but taking a bigger picture look, um, I would say it's important to recognize that this is something that's been happening in our society for, like, ages. And so there means that there's something going on societally that's preventing it from stopping. Um, and a lot of times it's like a collective ignorance in terms of we don't-- sometimes we don't want to look at things that we don't want to see, we don't want to believe that our world has this stuff happening, um, a lot of times when trauma survivors step forward, it makes people uncomfortable, because it shows a darker side of reality, which I understand is extremely uncomfortable. But if we conductively continue ignoring it, the idea is that probably won't just go away, like there has to be some other systematic changes, like of course, we support trauma survivors after the traumatic incident, and some traumas we can't avoid, right? Natural disasters and things like that, there is-- I mean, that's also, like-- we can talk about in terms of like, climate change and all, which is also a collective responsibility, but in terms of, like, some things, like interpersonal abuse is something that I, um, there has to be more collective awareness of, um, like collective work from like younger ages, so people learn more about it, people are more aware to recognize it, um, and more aware of how to deal with it. Like not be bystanders and all. So that's where I sort of go with the idea of collective karma. To understand that in general, we are not isolated beings, um, and we do impact each other, and that understanding of taking that collective responsibility of like, oh, if not someone else will do it we all do it in the context, if I were to extend it to like, indigenous communities, I would say that's just acknowledging that as a society, you know, especially societies that have done harm, especially like the colonial societies that have done their harm, and like, acknowledging that we all have that responsibility to support people in that, and not just leaving them alone, and being like, well you guys can deal with this on your own, it's your problem. Um, it's-- that would be very problematic for a lot of reasons to say, um, and I think just acknowledging that we can't turn a blind eye to things, because it's there, and it won't go away until we all as a society do something about it.

Thanks so much Daryna that was very, very, helpful to help us understand collective karma. And we wanted to ask you next, could you explain how you understand skillful compassion, and how it could be helpful for trauma survivors?

Right, um, so skillful compassion, um, I talk about it in terms of, um, so when we are supporting others, um, to understand skillful compassion. So the idea of skillful compassion, be like wise compassion is I guess another way you can describe it, but in Buddhism there's this idea that, um, when we're doing that, when we're trying to serve, um, like, the ideal, be like the ideal server, um, uh, we need to have both equal parts of wisdom and compassion. So this idea that without compassion, you're just gonna be cold. Like if you just have wisdom, if you're just discerning, and you're just logically reasoning things, you're not going to have that sort of empathy, um, usually in care provider professions that's not the issue, the issue like people do have a lot of empathy when they go into care provider roles, um, but then there's this idea that you also need wisdom with compassion, because without, uh, wisdom compassion can become more of like an enabling, more of like, willing to-- wanting just to quickly fix things, um, and you can become overwhelmed with compassion. So this idea of holding these two things together, which will help you discern on how to best support somebody. So rather than thinking, for example, of like okay, well I think they need this, and acting on that quickly, because of course you want to really that person suffering, and it makes a lot of sense that you're going to try to act quickly. But, um, if you're able to have that like discernment in place, you can have that-- enough discernment and be like, hey what do they need? Like ask them what they need, right? Um, what would actually be helpful for you to support them. In cases of like the example I used, I don't think that it comes from bad intentions when people offer these inval-- like these comments, of like, oh, this was like your karma, they might genuinely think that that's helpful, um, but it does-- maybe does not exercise with like-- skillful compassion, because they're not-- they're acting out of like, just the willingness to help, but they're not really inquiring with the trauma survivor what's actually helpful for them, um, so that could be a-- kind of a better approach to truly supporting someone, um, having that conversation and asking what they would need it might be better than impact-- like just, um, assuming, um, that. So I think that's mainly where I take it in context of this paper, uh, but in general, it's just ensuring that you are supporting somebody the way they need to be supported, not how you think they need to be supported.

Again, so helpful and such good reminders for-- for people in care, care relationships.

Um, we wondered if there was anything else you want to cover, or maybe you might want to talk about your practice these days and how it's beginning to form?

Um, yeah, I think one thing I wanted to just address I think-- I don't think I mentioned this yet, in terms of my paper, sort of, like, I guess it's like how do we use the concept of karma now, how-- like what now, I've talked about this, and I've said let's just not do this, but what do we do, um, more helpful sort of approach to that, is rather than using karma as a way to like shame ourselves, blame ourselves, for anything happening in the world right now, using a more forward-looking approach on karma, so this idea that, like right now, I can control the actions I have now, and looking forward of like-- instead of trying to understand what happened, why something happened, in the context of karma, being like, okay, well, uh, let's say a trauma survivor-- okay, what am I going to do with my life now, in order to, like, get-- like, accumulate better karma? Or-- not like-- not in the sense of like you need to, but like, just to continue living life in a good way, um, this idea of like, okay, well what can I do? Some people can help others heal from trauma, right, they can heal themselves, that's also something, maybe that's productive for them, so just more looking at it as-- in a productive way, what can we do that would have good, and same with collective karma, right? That, what can we do that will be helpful? Rather than, oh, we-- you know, it's all our fault, everything's gone. So that's like, the main thing I just think I wanted to add for my paper, um, in terms of my practice, uh, I am really just starting off, um, it is an exciting time, but also scary time, I think, in my life, because I'm kind of transitioning from between being a student to, um, like a working professional, and I've sort of been a student since I was in kindergarten, so, it's a really different life, um, but it's an exciting life, um, and I am really enjoying the work that I'm currently doing, um, I think I definitely picked the rear-- the right path, um, and I do do-- like I do see it more of a vocation rather than a career, because it is something that I just-- I love doing, and I would, you know, I would do this, like-- this is what I kind of feel like I meant to do, at least for now in life, so, I don't have too much to say on it, but, um, I do-- I am slowly developing the private practice, I have an Instagram page, um, and a website, and slowly building things up there. But, yeah, thank you for asking about that.

Well that's cool, Daryna, we're so happy to hear of your success and and, um, all these awesome things that are on the horizon for you, and I wanted to ask you, just as we-- as we close today, if you could recommend one book or resource on karma if our student-- or sorry, students-- our listeners wanted to learn more, is there something that comes to mind?

Yeah, so in terms of karma, um, I'm trying to think what would be like, a good kind of, idea, I think they're-- I think something that's like interesting, so in the-- in my paper, I do recommend a book that's not exactly about karma, uh, but it's kind of this idea of the presence of the divine in one's life, and that's, uh, When Bad Things Happen to Good People by Harold Kushner, so that I would recommend, just in general, I just-- I recommend that book, but in terms of karma, I will-- just give me like one second, I have-- I think I know something, I just want to make sure I'm giving you the right title. Uh.

No worries, this was totally like a spur of the moment question, so.

But it's a really good question, I was-- I was thinking about this, and I really should have come with a title in mind, but, um, I'm just gonna check my kindle, um.

No worries, our brains are always very full of information so we understand.

I mean, I welcome people to read my paper and read through the, uh, read through the references, that for sure, um, but, um

Well, um, if you can't find it right now, don't worry, you can email it to us and we'll pop it into the resources below.

Hold on, I think this could work, um, so in general, just about like Buddhist theology, um, a recent book that I came across, I don't know if this is like the best one, I will try to find something that's better but, um, I really do like, um, Love and Rage, uh, the Path of Liberation Through Anger, llama Rod Owens. Um, so that in general is, um, I would say that's like the-- it's a pretty interesting approach to just-- in general, like, anger. Um, contrary to like, you know, Buddhist-- Buddhism is like, colloquially seen as a very peaceful religion, and makes it feel like there's no place for anger, but I would feel like with trauma-- so that book does cover the concept of like social justice and trauma, um, and this idea of like, just rage. Of like, justified anger, and how anger can be productive, so though that's not exactly the same thing of what I'm talking about necessarily, but kind of among the same lines. So that is a book I do recommend. Um, but I will see if there's anything else I can think of, for sure.

Okay, thanks, I'm sure our listeners will be able to find that, and I'll try to pop a link below the, uh, in the podcast, um, description box for that as well.

Well thank you so much for coming today and sharing with us and for your work on the-- the fantastic paper we really appreciate it.

Well thank you so much for having me, it's been-- it's been a great pleasure to be speaking here, and thank you for making this like a very comfortable space for me to speak, and for all your support through the whole publication process, and everything, um, it's been-- it's been great to do that, and I'm really grateful that I had that opportunity.