Season 2 Episode 10: What is Inclusive Pedagogy? Roundtable

In this episode, we explore ideas about how to make pedagogy more inclusive for mad and crip people. We also share some of our own experiences with non-inclusive pedagogies and discuss some fixes. With Eliana Ah Rum Ku, Shauna Kubossek and Laura MacGregor. 

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Transcript

[Music]

Welcome to another episode of the Mad and Crip Theology Podcast, it is so nice to be here with y'all today, so, today, Laura, Shauna, and Eliana, and I, are going to be having a chat about what is inclusive pedagogy when we're thinking about, um, uh, teaching with mad and crip people in our communities, um, and Miriam's away today, so she will be missed, and so is Wendy. They both had some stuff that they had to take care of, so. As we're starting up, um, I'm just going to give a couple of announcements, this has been working well for us, I think, over the past, uh, few episodes, and it helps to keep us organized here, uh, as well. Or me, at least, be organized.

Um, so I just want to make a couple of announcements, so, the Mad and Crip Theology Press is still looking for contributions to our upcoming volume, entitled "Joyful Hard Work: Everyday Stories of Caregivers". So, if you are a person who gives care, uh, to someone with disabilities, and or mental illness, we would love to hear from you, or if you know somebody who does that, um, who's-- or who's done that for you, uh, we would love to connect with them. Um, and they can always email us if they have questions, or like, anything, or want to chat about ideas, um, we love working with first-time authors too, so please don't feel like you have to be fancy, none of us are fancy here at the press, so, um, you can email us at Madandcriptheology@gmail.com. Okay. And if you want to check out the call for content for that, it's at madandcriptheologypress.ca. And I also want to give a more global call for content this morning, as well, the press is looking for some, um, some manuscripts. We-- we want to start publishing books, and so, if you have a book idea, um, please get in touch with us, and, uh, you can check out our featured disciplines at the-- on the press website at madandcriptheologypress.ca, just go to the 'about' tab, and you can see kind of what we're looking for, um, and please don't limit yourself, like if you're an artist, or Storyteller, um, we would really-- or, like, you have a kids book idea, um, or like-- anything, just just skip-- drop us a line.

Uh, and the final announcement that I have today, is the new issue of the journal, The Canadian Journal of Theology, Mental Health, and Disability, will be out in November, knock on wood, um, probably by the time this episode airs will already be out, so, you can go check-- check that out, and that one's on mad and crip sexuality, and, um, we are looking for contributions for our spring issue of the journal, which is going to be on caregiving and care receiving, so, if you're interested in writing something, you have like, um, art, or storytelling, or other things, if you're doing research in this area, we would love to hear from you. So, whew, that was a lot of announcements, uh, so thanks for listening to that.

So, I think what we'll do now, is we will get into our-- our conversation, our roundtable talk, about inclusive pedagogy. So, this conversation comes out a little bit of-- at least for me, when I think of this, I think of, like, how much non-inclusive pedagogy I have experienced in my life, so, I'm probably going to be-- kind of, talking about some of that stuff today, and I'm really interested to hear what everybody else wants to, uh, wants to share about this topic. Um, I think most of us have, uh, done teaching, uh, colleges and universities, and so, it'll be interesting to hear, um, what everybody has to say. So, is there anybody who would like to kick us off, um, today, and-- and, you know, bring a question to the group, or maybe share a story about inclusive pedagogy?

I can start, and talk a little bit about a class I taught last year, um, and-- and some of the ideas about how we taught the class, and how we hope to teach the class, we weren't able to actually run it exactly how we wanted because of the pandemic, but we hope that I think in future, we might be able to-- to expand how we run the class. So, last semester-- last year I should say, I taught a course on embodied knowledge, um, embodied theological knowledge, essentially. How do we know stuff, um, and I was really interested, particularly in areas of spirituality, where what we know is often something we can't always express with words and ideas, because really, when you get down to it, how do you know God? How do you talk about God? It's pretty limited when we try to confine it only to words and ideas, which is how universities often work. And this idea of talking about our spirituality, without expanding how we experience and, um, communicate spirituality, seemed a bit circular to me, or problematic.

So, I actually co-taught a course with an expressive arts facilitator, so we would talk about themes within spirituality, or knowledge, or theology, but then we would integrate various artistic, um, experiences, and-- and again, it wasn't about what we were producing, the actual art output, it was the experience of creating art, and how that connected to experiencing the Divine, or, um, having some sort of connection with the Divine. Our ultimate goal, is actually to co-teach this class, or to teach this class alongside people with intellectual disabilities who take on leadership roles, so that, um-- and it's not that they're visitors, they're members of the class, and they join the class, and engage in the class, and offer leadership as well, and-- and what really started me going down this path was the leadership of my own son, who experienced, um, sort of his own spirituality in ways that necessarily, um, didn't always-- weren't always ways that I understood it, as someone who tends to hang out in my head. And so, these are some pedagogical strategies that I'm playing with in courses I teach, in terms of trying to get us-- particularly in conversations around spirituality, trying to, sort of, get us out of our head, um, and-- and explore ideas in other ways, in particular through embodiment, um, and-- and sort of experiences of the senses. Um, yeah!

So that's something I'm playing with, and the-- we weren't able to bring in, uh, community members because of covid last year, the hope is we will do that, um, in future years, but last year the co-taught class with the-- an expressive arts facilitator was-- was amazing, and as someone who teaches pedagogically, sort of, watching how students are making connections, and how ideas are coming alive in new and creative ways, was really-- it was cool to witness, and it was cool to be part of, so. That's my-- a bit of my story.

That sounds so cool, Laura, and I remember every time you talk about this class, I like really want to take it, so, it sounds amazing. Um, I wonder, um, I was just thinking as you were talking, um, what were sort of like the ways that-- how did you invite people with intellectual disabilities to come and be a part of the class? Um, what was the process of-- of that? Just in case some of our listeners might be interested in doing something similar.

Yeah, so, our hope originally had been that, a group of people with intellectual disabilities would join for the entire semester, and would be members of the class, and would bring their own unique gifts and leaderships, and help us really, experience this together. Because of covid we weren't able to do that, so what we did was we did connect with community-- Uh, members of the community throughout the semester, in particular Larsh. And, the spirit movers spent some time with us, and offered an in-service on dance and music, via Zoom, um, so really, um, there was a lot more of connecting to friends in the community, people who are doing this kind of stuff in the community, and bringing them into classes to-- to share their expertise with the class. We-- we hope to do it a little bit differently in the future, but-- but really, it was just, you know, going out in the community and hanging out with lots of different people, and then inviting them to join your class, um. That was a lot of what I did.

Yeah, that's so cool. And we look forward to hearing more about, um, if you're able to-- to do that in the future, have people come-- more people come, anyway, um, after covid, hopefully, we're like, almost done with covid, so yeah. But thank you so much for that, Laura.

Eliana, what about you? I'm really interested to hear, because you're living in Korea-- in South Korea, you've you've moved back after your time in Canada. So what's it like in South Korea, um, and how-- how do you think about inclusive pedagogy there?

Um, I've taught a lot-- some-- some classes in homologics, preaching, so, in, um, in Korea, um, any career background, there's so many men. There's-- last-- last Monday, um, just one woman, just one woman in the class. Uh without that woman, the rest of them are men. So, in that case, I, um, I thought how to-- how to like draw her experience, and her, like, you know, her opinion, without ignoring like, uh, how can I say, um, ignoring dichotomy conversation. Like, in-- in Korea, there's, um, not good, um, how can I say-- perspective at feminism. I don't know why, but, uh, we started, uh, in a not healthy way. So, um, it is hard to say about, like, a woman's perspective to, uh, um, interpret Bible. So, I should have some kind of, um, should have done some kind of, uh, way to bring out her-- her experience. As, uh, you know, one of, um, one of a conversation. So, I started to give a chance to everyone to say something. It was in a really small way, but I think language, and, um, the chance to speak, or the part of the power, I think the really big authority, especially like, for my-- from my experience, I'm not, uh, I'm not a-- how can I say? I'm not native speaker in English, and my pronunciation, and my grammar, was not perfect. So when I was, uh, in class, I always, like, nervous when I speak English.

So, I feel like I-- I don't want to say it like in that way, but at least like, understand my narrow, um, ability to explain, I feel like a disabled, to speak something, and disabled to like, converse, uh, what I-- what I-- what I think, and what I feel. So, in that class I-- I got so many stress, because, it-- it was hard to express something in my heart. So, I-- I-- um-- especially in a big group, and especially in a, you know, the conversation about like North American culture, I could not, um, I feel like I-- I cannot be included. I could not be included it in that conversation, even in that class, as a being, itself. So I was waiting, like something, um, something kind of chance, to speak out my opinion. I can-- I-- I couldn't do myself, so, like, for me, inclusive way of teaching, um, maybe-- maybe related to the power of language, and power of, um, speak, chance to speak, so, everyone has, like, ethics of listening. We-- we need to, like, develop ethics of listening. And-- and, you know, the sense of compassion. So, I wanted it to, like, feel, I am not alone, and-- and everyone wants, um, to listen to what I say. So, I-- I tried it to that student, the only one woman, can feel like, oh, I'm-- I am not alone in that class, and everyone wants to hear my voice. That's why I just gave her a chance to speak, and respect her opinion, and show my ethics of listening. And I, um, of course, I-- I asked the old people in that class, we need to have, like, ethics of listening, even though we-- even though like we do not want to listen. Like, radically speaking. Like, we-- we do not interested in that issue, but we need to listen, because it is a way of, like, inclusive, uh-- making inclusive class.

Well, thank you so much for sharing that, Eliana, I love the idea of ethics of listening. I was wondering, when you were talking, um, when you were in the class, and you were finding it difficult to-- to formulate some of your ideas, and speak, would you-- do you wish that the professor would have called you to speak, like, invited you to say something, or would that have put more pressure on you and made it more stressful? Like, I always-- I wonder, sometimes, like, when I'm teaching, like, for The Quiet Ones, I try to say, like, "oh, I'd really love to hear from somebody who hasn't had a chance to speak yet", because some of-- you know, what happens in class with the dynamics, it's like the pecking order, and there's some students who talk a lot-- too much, and then there's the quiet ones. So, it-- would that of-- something like that have helped, or would that made it-- would-- would that have stressed you out more, I just wonder.

Thank you for asking that issue, because many people asked me the same question. Whenever I got that question, I would ask-- I would ask, like, you-- please, um, ask something to, you know, the quiet people, because that itself can be a chance to, like, reject or accept. Without this question, um, that quiet people never get the, kind of, you know, chance, and if they feel like, "oh, um, my-- my teacher, or my class, wanted to, like, uh, my opinion, I can raise up my hand, and-- or someday, or some chance, or I can express my opinion". So, I think that asking the-- how can I say, the question, can be a way to, like, throw their, um, opinion in that class, and inclusive way of teaching I think.

Yeah, and I know myself, I'm one of The Quiet Ones, so, I need people to like, pull out stuff when I-- I have social anxiety, so, like, speaking in a group is like one are my worst nightmares, and so, yeah, I do appreciate it when, um, teachers will take-- take, um, time to remember The Quiet Ones, so.

So yeah, um. Shawna, what about you? What were you thinking, um, of sharing today about pedagogy?

Yeah, um, thank you Eliana for, um, what you said right there, kind of, um, before I move on to, uh, something else, I'd love to-- to speak about this for a second, I'm also one of The Quiet Ones in a group, um, and I had one Professor, um, in my masters, who would kind of wait until the whole conversation of the class had had like done its thing, and it had like, risen up, and kind of come back down, and then before moving on, she would say, um, "oh, Shauna, and" and she would name two or three people, and said, "before we move on, is there anything else that you would like to say". And always with this kind of era, you can say pass, or you can enter in, and almost without fail, every time all of us two or three, uh, would offer something, and then we would move on. Um, and I think that could be-- depending on the energy and the vibe from the front of the classroom, that could be a really like, whoa! Um, you know, like, "Shauna say something before we're done", or it can feel the way that it did in that classroom, which was this, um, invitation to those, um, like I-- I'm not one, to like, fight to get my opinion in there, I just don't have the energy, I don't really, you know, care that much to-- to fight my way into a conversation that's happening, um, and those who know me know that I have many opinions, um, on just about every topic, but I don't always, um, fight to get my word in, and I think in some ways, um, I've been in other classrooms where I've been asked afterwards, like, "you need to speak up!" um, but just because of the energy, and the vibe in the classroom, and how it's set up, I just would never, even if I was offered a chance, probably say, uh, say anything, um. Because in different ways it's safe or unsafe, you know, for me in those moments to-- to say something. And I noticed especially this in classrooms where-- in theological classrooms, where there's fewer, um, women. Um, that happens a lot. So, um, thank you for for bringing all of that up, Eliana.

Um, I was thinking-- in our topic for today, I was thinking about a lot of my friends and conversations that I've had with friends, over our academic careers, um, and, kind of the nuts and bolts of even a syllabus, the way that a syllabus is set up, the assignments are set up, um, in-- in particular I was thinking about a friend of mine who lives with ADHD, and has, um-- deadlines are really difficult. So, um, to get up to-- like, almost as if, like, they needed the stress of a deadline to get going, um, and the ways-- I started thinking about the ways that we are, um, kind of, catalyzed into our work, what energizes us to even start the process, how does that process go, and then how does it end, um, and just the, like, the onus, often, is on the student to say, "I need this from you to make-- to make it work for me", um, and I feel like we're often so tired with with advocating for ourselves, and, um, that it's like, again, it's like, okay, now I need to explain this whole thing to someone else to make this process actually something that I can engage with, and get something out of, and learn. Um, and to offer our own wisdom to other folks in the classroom, and to our professors, so, um, that's kind of where I went with it this last couple weeks thinking about the question is, how do we, in the nuts and bolts of our-- even our deadlines, and how we ask assignments to be submitted, and how they're graded, um, how does that whole process go, and how can we make that more accessible, um, and friendly, and, uh, catalyzing, for-- for the work, and the wisdom that's already there? So, um, those are kind of some of the questions I've been thinking about, and, um, yeah. Wonder what y'all think, and if there's any strategies that you've used, um, that don't require someone to-- especially in a big classroom, step in and say, with extra energy and extra gumption, to say like, okay, I need this, and I need to explain to you why, and how can we just make that a part of what we do?

Yeah, such a good question, um, it's interesting-- as you were talking, Shauna, I was thinking, like, I try to be like-- kind of maybe like, over function a little bit in, like, asking people, "do you need any accommodation, like, in in my class?" like, I'm like, "is there anything I can do?" like I'm-- I really want to try to be there for people, and I find depending on the class, um, like I had a-- well, Shauna and I had a big group this past summer, um, teaching a class at a Emmanuel college, and we-- it was like, I sent out an announcement, I told them 50 times in class, like, I was like, come on guys, if you need anything, just let me know! Nobody came forward, and I was like, but this is a class on mental health, there must be folks in the room that need stuff. And it's interesting, because the summer before, when I had a smaller group in class, like half of them came forward, and said I need XYZ. So I was able to work with them, and, like, I-- a couple of them submitted assignments, like, instead of writing, because writing was horrible for them, they were able to submit assignments, like, they recorded stuff, and sent it to me like a podcast, and different things like that, but I just I wonder, like, if, um, I-- I was thinking, Shauna, about what you were saying, maybe is too much on people to like, have to explain to me, "again, this is what I need and this is why" um, and I think, uh, accessibility services, uh, at least at UofT, is like so burdensome, and so inaccessible, if you ask me, there's so many hoops you have to jump through, and it takes so much energy, so I find a lot of students don't even bother getting an accessibility advisor, and like, because you have to go to your doctor who has to sign papers, and then you have to go here, and there, and it's like, "oh my God!" it's like a part-time job just trying to advocate for yourself, um.

Yeah, those things cost money sometimes too, all the doctors notes you have to get, and yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I-- I worry, I-- I agree with you, this was a conversation we had actually just had this week here, where I teach, and, the worry is that-- that-- or a concern of mine is that, there seems to be this-- this sort of default assumption that students are trying to play the system, and make it easier on themselves, or not do the work, um, when in fact to have those accommodations requires an inordinate amount of work, often. I know, I'm really trying to think about-- and-- and your idea of podcasts, and diverse ways of demonstrating knowledge, are really helpful, I-- I think I want to add podcasts, because that's not one of my potential deliverables in a course, but I've been trying to think of, how do people acquire knowledge and demonstrate knowledge, which is why I've also been thinking about the embodiment piece, because, you know, we're so programmed to read, and think, and write, and maybe, for undergraduates, have an exam, answer a question correctly, and so, I've been trying to create as many options as I can think of, um, for, sort of, course summative assignments, um, so that students can demonstrate an acquisition of knowledge, and experience of learning, in diverse ways. My courses are all experiential, so they spend time in the community, or they spend time with an expressive arts facilitator, there's always an experiential component that is integrated completely into the course, um, but some of the deliverables in my course can be things like, um, yes they can write a classic paper, but they can do, uh, they can do a film study, they can do a book study, they can create art, um, they can write poetry, they can-- they have to connect it to the course in some meaningful way, but they-- the idea is that knowledge is not just in a scholarly paper with appropriately cited chicago references, um, and how do we make sure that students with diverse learning abilities can demonstrate that learning, is something I've been really trying to think about, um. Yeah, so I-- thank you for the podcast idea.

Yeah, no worries, I've heard mixed reviews from students who had to do like a full-on podcast though, like if it was like, "you can write a paper, basically but say it out loud" as a podcast, a lot of them said it was way too much work. So, with this particular student who I, uh, who I was working with, they, um, they actually have a podcast, so they had all of their, like, fancy equipment already set up, and so it was very easy for them to just, like, do their weekly journal entries that I have for that class via voice. So, um, and it was good for me, because I would just like, do other things, and listen to their their journal for that week, so, it was kind of fun, I don't know if I should maybe, like, for next year, get them all to do that, um, because I know, um, Wendy was telling me a couple weeks ago, um, when she works with-- in one of her classes as a TA, they give all the feedback for papers as comments-- oral comments, that they like, record, and then the students are able to access that through the UofT, like, web page where all their graded assignments are, so they're like, "hey, Shauna, great work, just wanted to say you should have worked on your thesis statement a little bit more, blah blah blah blah", and they said it's way faster for them, and the students feel kind of like they're having a conversation with with the instructors, so I thought that was a very cool idea, too.

Yeah, and then you get the, uh, tone of voice, and the energy with which it is offered, as well, which is-- that's really cool, I haven't heard of that before.

Yeah, I know I'm one of those people that always reads comments as being either disappointed or angry, so I think that would be very nice to have, um, you know, a non-disapproving voice, um, encouraging you with your work, so.

Um, maybe I'll just offer a quick thought about, um, some of my own experience, of like, going through the gong show that is, like, trying to get accommodations, um, I think one thing that I would, um, really encourage-- I have two ideas. So the first one is, um, I really needed a note taker when I was going through my PhD, because I get, like, really bad migraines, right? So sometimes it-- like I either can't come to class, or, I find it difficult while I'm in class to like, write things and look at white paper, which is like the worst colour for me, while sitting under fluorescent lighting which gives me migraines, so, um, it was like, literally, I never was-- I never found a note taker, even though accessibility services would literally advocate for me, and ask my professors to get one for me, which would just be like, a person in the class who would share their notes with me, no student, the entire time that I went through my PhD, like, class time or coursework ever-- ever volunteered. So what I would usually get was an email from the professor saying, "I can't find a note taker, so basically you're shit out of luck".

Um, so I would really encourage, uh, if there's teachers listening to this, just get a note taker for your class just generally, and get them to just upload their notes to class website at the end of every class. It's not extra work for them, they're already taking notes, they can just, like, literally take a picture of their notes with their cell phone camera, and just quickly upload it, right? And everybody's kind of covered.

Um, the other thing I wanted to mention was, uh, I've heard-- I've heard some like, grumpy comments from professors about having to advocate for stu-- having to, um, accommodate students, and Laura, you kind of alluded to that, earlier, I think, on the podcast today, but, um, you know, this idea that it's extra work, "it's so much extra work for me to have to meet with a student, it's so much extra work for me to have to email their accessibility advisor" um, like, I think what-- I think what I'd like to say, is like, that's your job, as a teacher, to meet with the accessibility advisor, and also, like, find pathways for your students so that they can succeed in your class. Um, and like, I really want to put my money where my mouth is, and try to do that as much as I can, um, but, you know, like, the administrative part of like answering emails, or like, maybe having to meet with a student one-on-one, is like, doable, I think. Um, even if you have just like a short meeting with them, five-- five or ten minutes on Zoom, um, meet with them. Like, they need your help, um, and you never know how much, like, you going out of your way to care for them, will mean to them. Because, every time I got, "I can't find you a note taker, so I don't know what to do" email, I just felt like, more and more discouraged, it was like, "oh, you know, if I do need to miss class or something, I don't know anyone in the class, so what am I gonna do?" so, anyway, um-- oh, and okay, and the second idea that I have, just to like, end off my rambling, is, um, uh, to-- if you have a note taker, what you could do, also, is offer them, like, a certificate or something, at the end of the class, just saying that they were like, an awesome, um, like an awesome helper to the class, that they could put on their CV, right? It would-- I don't know like what you would necessarily call it, like a-- like, you don't have to use the language of note taker, but, something, and then you could give it to them, and-- and yeah, they could put it on their CV to show that they're-- that they were like, doing some, like-- it's-- it's kind of like community work, right, you're helping the community of learning, so that everybody can be involved, um, and I heard that idea from somebody who came in and did a presentation on mental health and teaching, and I thought, that is so cool. I really want to start trying to do that, so you're like, recognizing the student for, um, their hard work.

Yeah, I-- I totally agree with Amy's-- Amy's opinion. Um, because like many times-- like, when I-- when I could not, um, understand, or I could not catch, uh, what the instructor said, I was so, like, stressed out, how I-- how do I figure out this, you know, situation, and then it was hard to, like, ask other people, like, show me your note, or something like that, so, yeah, your idea is quite helpful to, like, many international students, and add on your, um, idea, I-- for, um, international students, the issue of editing is really, really, really, important to supplement our paper, because no-- I think, no instructor no-- um, wants to get, you know, some like messed up grammar paper, so, um, it's editing is really important, like, I feel like editor is one of my, how can I say, like not-- you know the less than sore mate, but, you know, writing partner, to me. I-- I-- I've experienced like twice, um, my editor, uh, without any, like, how can I say, previous, um, announcement, just-- just reject to-- rejected to editing my paper. So I was so in, um-- so frustrated, how-- how can I-- how can I figure out this, because I-- the all I can do is coming out, so, editing-- editor-- um, um, you know, as I know, UofT-- UofT, has some kind of additive for a student, but, you know, international student it's not enough, it's not enough. Because so many international students need-- need their editor, but, like, you know, the number of editors is quite, you know, limited, and then, uh, you know, in the accommodation issue, there's no, like, extension for international students, we have, like, no way-- international students must have the time to edit. They finish it-- they finish it like, at least a week ahead, um, of, like, you know, some people do, because they they need the editing time. So, I think, uh, class editor, um, quite-- would be quite good idea for, like, for accommodation, or, like, um, inclusive way to, um, teaching.

And, um, one more idea, uh, no not-- not idea, but I really worry about the mental health of the instructor and TA, because, you know, as Amy said, and many-- many teachers that, like, we need, kind of, how to set our boundary. We need, kind of, a strategy. Because we cannot accept all, you know, that kind of issue and complication, I-- I witnessed Amy's hardship when I worked with her, like, she-- she-- she was not a, you know, personal counselor, but some-- some students asked her, um, like, their personal hardship-- I totally understood their situation, but, I really worried about, you know, Amy's mental health, so, yeah.

Yeah, thanks Eliana, oh, I didn't know you were worried about me. Oh my goodness. Um, yeah, Eliana and I worked together, I think it was in the really-- one of the really big cohort classes, maybe, like, two years ago, I think, um, at Emmanuel, and yeah. Yeah, it's interesting I-- I think, um, as we're growing as teachers, to learn what-- what our job is, and, um, have sort of those multiple hats when you need to meet with people, um, to talk to them about what's going on in their lives, um, yeah.

Yeah, especially when you-- when you're working, you know, you-- a lot of people who take the classes that we teach, um, have a lot of lived experience of the stuff that we're teaching about, so. Yeah. thanks for those observations, Eliana. I know we had talked before, at Emmanuel, about having a, um, like, a group of PhD students who offer their editing services, uh, like as another community gift, you know, to give to the community of learning, um, of editing. And I wonder if that's something that might, um, you know, materialize in the future. Um, yeah. And, uh, Eliana, for your idea of having a class editor, would you want to have, like, um, students like, switch papers, and, like, do a copy edit, like go through and check for grammar and spelling and stuff, is that-- is that what you're thinking? Like-- like partnering, or something?

Yeah it's not a whole idea, like a, uh, like a writing supervisor, it's just correcting grammar, and upward um bubble issue, something? Yeah, that-- that-- that would be, you know, really helpful. That looks simple, but really helpful.

Okay, yeah, I like that idea, that's cool. We're getting a lot of good ideas today.

I'll just add a quick one about note taking that I actually heard of this week, here at Laurier, um, we also have I-- I'm also often asked to find a notetaker for class, and-- and our accessible learning center has strategies, and that has proved helpful, and useful, but one of the the things that the accessible learning center proposed, which really intrigued me, was an idea of, um, most of us use online learning platforms, so we use my learning space here at Laurier, having simply a whiteboard, or a note board, where students can share class notes, just any students, so you don't have to be the formal class note taker, but, if you're willing to share your notes, or even just observations or thoughts during the class, would you be willing to put them-- them in this community folder, essentially. And one of the um-- they noted that one of the things it does is it really does create a strong sense of community, particularly among smaller classes. And I thought that was a really great idea as well, and something I'd like to explore trying. It's a collaborative supportive endeavor, that everyone is trying to help everyone else learn, um, and it-- and I also like the idea that it makes learning less competitive, which it can be, um, in-- in the University setting.

Yeah, that's so true, it can be very, very competitive. Um, Shauna, did I see-- it I saw-- were you gonna say something? I thought I saw an idea pop up there, or-- was I uh, am I wrong?

No, I was just thinking back to, uh, um, a time-- a class where we kind of shared our notes on a Google doc, because, the way that the class was set up was very-- uh, was more a seminar style, and, um, there was two kind of groups that took on different questions every week, or it was every day, it was an intensive I think, so in the evening we would go home, and we would all write up, and there was a list of questions, and we would all do kind of simultaneous research, and then add, um, to the document as we went, um, and then at the end, too, we had all the research done by our colleagues from the other half of the question, so not only did we get to talk about it in class, but we also got this kind of running-- these running documents, um, and I still have them, of like all of those-- all of that information. Um, so, yeah. Even in class, people can be writing their notes into a Google doc. I don't know, I think that's really interesting, to think about how to use it.

Yeah, I really like that idea.

I usually-- I use Google Docs-- I'm kind of obsessed with Google Docs, but I use them more for like, um, just like referring the students to documents, and I've had them do some collaborative work on Google Docs before, and it's so fun to see like, all of their little bubbles pop up at the top of the Google Doc, and everybody typing, it's so cool, it's like such a great experience to see that, um. But yeah, I really like that idea Shauna, of like, uh, like a collaborative doc that you use, um, during class, and I-- I experienced something like that when I went to a couple of, uh, workshops, oh the name of the-- the name of the-- oh, uh, Crip Camp. Um, I went to some of the Crip Camp stuff, and they-- they did that as well. So it was like, simultaneous, um, document, like, they-- they had like, uh, a document of like-- pre-published-- of like, what the person was going to be talking about, who's presenting, plus everyone was invited to go on and add notes. So it was really fun. It was like, everybody collaborating. Um, yeah.

Yeah, you can even add questions, and, yeah. Anyways. Yeah, there's lots to do with that, I think that would be cool.

Yeah, well I-- I'm aware of time, I know some of us have to-- have to go today, so, I'm wondering if anybody has any last thoughts that they'd like to share, um, about-- about pedagogy today?

Well, we, uh, I think this is a great conversation, and I think, maybe this could be part one of a series that we do, or something, over the next year, um, I know Laura has said she has some colleagues who may want to-- may be able to come and share some of their wisdom with us too, around this topic, so-- so this is part one, and I just want to say thank you so much to Laura, Shauna, and Eliana for being here today, um, our social experiment is continuing, we are doing this in the morning again, and Eliana, we just thank you so much for coming on, because it's like-- is it-- it's like 12 30 a.m where you are. So, thank you so much for-- for giving us your evening, uh, this evening, and staying up to come and talk to us. So, thank you so much to everyone for listening.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yes, thank you.