Season 2, Episode 8: Roundtable Talk with Laura MacGregor, Wendy Cranston and Shauna Kubossek

On this episode of the podcast we chat about the theologies we wish we would have known about when we were growing up. 

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Transcript

Welcome to the Mad and Crip Theology Podcast,
hosted by Miriam Spies and Amy Panton, which comes out of the Canadian Journal of Theology, Mental Health and Disability. We both live and work lands that have been homes and remain homes to the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Haudenosaunee, the Huron Wendat, the Neutral; and the Ojibway/Chippewa peoples and other peoples who have cared for the land.. We are grateful for the opportunity to live and work on this land and are mindful of the need to repair broken covenants. This podcast is an opportunity to model how faith communities can engage in theological and spiritual conversations around madness and cripness. If you need a full transcript you can find videos on our Youtube channel. We want to say before we begin that topics and conversations we are raising throughout our time together are often hard! They are hard for mad and crip people ourselves and hard for our families and loved ones. So, do what you need to do to take care of yourselves, your bodies, minds, and hearts. And now, here is our episode

Well, welcome to the Mad and Crip Theology podcast, it's so nice to be with you today, and we are recording in the morning again, this is like, some kind of social experiment that we're trying to see if we have a little bit more brain power in the mornings. Um, and it seems to be working pretty good so far. So today, uh, Miriam and I are joined by three lovely women: Laura, and Wendy, and Shauna is here with us today, so, uh, Shauna, I wonder if you could take a second to introduce yourself to our listeners, um, because you are a new voice on the podcast. 

Yeah, absolutely. Um, it's so nice to be here with you all, I'm excited, um, yeah, I'm Shawna, I am a second year PhD student at Emmanuel College in the Toronto School of Theology, um, and I grew up on the west coast of Canada, mostly, um, near Vancouver, um, and have been interested since I was very, very, little in many big questions, um, to the chagrin of my mother, I think, many, many, days, but I've had theological questions since I was born, she says, um, so I'm really excited to kind of continue that conversation here, I am really interested in, um, the conversation of trauma theologies, and the language of redemption, salvation, and hope, how do we talk, um, eschatologically about these things without being harmful, um, so that's kind of the focus of my research, and, uh, yeah! I've spent, um, most of my adult life working in the downtown east side of Vancouver, um, with women and children mostly, um, and yeah! So that's a little bit about me.

Well, welcome Shawna we're so happy that you'll be joining us for some of the round tables that are coming up, and I might say, uh, just quickly, we're having some work done on our house right now, so, there will probably be banging, and crunching, and things that are happening in the background, so I'm so sorry in advance, and they're, like, literally right below me, so, yeah, there's going to be sawing and all kinds of stuff. Um, and just before we get started we just wanted to remind our listeners that we have some calls for content that we put out on our Facebook page that we would love for you to check out, um, our Journal, uh, issue for the spring is going to be on caregiving, both for people who give and receive care. So we hope you'll check that out, uh, we hope to have some creative content, um, some stories, art, photography, if you're doing academic work and want to put in a paper that would be very awesome, so please check that out. And there's another call for content, as well, for the press that's on caregiving, we're looking for stories of caregivers. So, uh, we can put the link to the Facebook page below the podcast as well. 

And a reminder that our next podcast will focus on a QnA, so if you have any questions, any-- anything you would like to hear us discuss, um, we might not have the answers, but we'll have words to share, um, and so you can find that info on the Facebook page too.

Yeah, thanks so much for that Miriam. And I just want to say, that we have a lot of people with curly hair on the podcast today. Which is lovely, I always-- growing up, I always, whenever I'd go to the hairdresser, the hairdresser would always straighten my hair, so I get very excited when I see other people with curly and wavy hair. So, yeah. 

I'm the only one!

Oh. Um, all right, so, for today the question that we're going to be talking about, kind of, like, is branching off of our last episode's question, so, last time we talked about what mental health and disability theology makes us upset and why, and today we're going to be talking about what theology and theologies do you now know, that you wish your younger self would have known and why. So, on our last episode, we we dipped our toes into some feminist theology, um, so we'd like to pick up where we left off. So, is there somebody who'd like to get us started with-- with your theology wish you would have known when you were younger?

Crickets? I feel like I'm teaching right now, and all the students are like I don't want to talk! Uh, Wendy! Would you like to get us started? You-- I know you had, uh, talked la-- in our last, um, episode about power, and how we-- how power exists in the church, in society, um, were you thinking you're picking up on that thread, or do you have something different for today? 

Uh, no, I could certainly pick up on that, I guess the theology, um, there's kind of two areas of theology that I wish I had known when I was younger. Well, I guess part of me thinks I wish I had known when I was younger, and the other part of me thinks, maybe, I wouldn't have known what to do with them. So it's kind of a... you know? Um, how in some ways I wonder if we come to the theology that we need when we need it, so... I'll just leave that there.

Um, one of them is, uh, of course, feminist theology, but I'm going to leave that to Laura.

Because I suspect that that is, um, that that may be her answer she might bring something else to the table, but, just in case. But the other theology, is, um, the Theology of Multiplicity. And the idea that, um, that Christian theology-- many theologies, but certainly Christian theology, really focuses on an idea of Oneness. That we really focus on, not just that God is necessarily one, but that so many-- so much of our lens of interpreting theology is one. That we have one idea of God, one image of God, um, that so many of the stories, even, of Jesus, um, telling Parables, relating to disciples, is that there's like, one beloved disciple, one interpretation of stories, one-- that we really view our theology with an idea of Oneness, and, so, when I came-- that al-- that idea always kind of rubbed me in the wrong way. 

But I didn't know what to do with it! And it was only when I came into my PhD work, actually, that I in, um, in a course in my first year PhD, I TA-ed a course on, um, feminist intersectional theology, and was introduced to the idea of a, uh, christian theology of Multiplicity, and, theologians, feminist theologians, like Laurel Schneider who picked up the idea, or who really discusses the idea of Multiplicity, and how, um, not even understanding God as many, but as multiple. 

Um, that really, sort of, allowed me a lens to understand why that idea of Oneness was so troublesome. And gave me a lens in which to really start to dig at that idea of-- of Oneness, and how we can really deconstruct it. And also a way to relate to, um, other world views, other theologies, other religious traditions, and, yeah. So, I'll leave it there, but, that's my-- that's my initial answer. 

Thanks so much Wendy, and how-- how do you think that, um, knowing about this multiplicity helps you think about your disabilities? Does it? 

Uh, absolutely, absolutely, I think that, um, it allows me to consider Christian, um, Christian theologies, and Christian doctrines in a way that makes them accessible. Rather than just anachronistic and kind of, to me, thrown away? So, rather than, like, throwing the baby out with the bath water, as it were, it allows for a lens to, kind of, reconsider. To look at doctrines like, "Image of God", and say, how do we look at that through a lens of Multiplicity? How do we look at-- Laurel Schneider does a fabulous, um, deconstruction and reconstruction of the Theology of, um, incarnation, in that way, and, really, all of-- so many of our-- our doctrines are really doctrines of Multiplicity. The Trinity is, in and of itself, multiple, right? It's not one. God is not one! And so, how do we start to consider different ways of viewing God? As understanding God in more than one way, and so, when I consider who I am in relation to God, rather than viewing it-- myself, as an al-- as an alternative. As someone who functions with disabilities, kind of, like, at the margins, always trying to-- not always, because I also am a white person, and so, there are some ways that, of course, I'm part of the dominant culture, and some ways that I am not part of the dominant culture, and so, how does the understanding of Multiplicity and viewing God as multiple, allow for the idea, of, of, that sort of multi-- multiple voices, rather than the idea of God as one. One image, and trying to relate to that one image through multiple voices, like. So. That is a roundabout way of answering your question. 

Thanks so much, yeah, that's so interesting, and, um, Wendy's dissertation work is on this exact topic, so, we're interested to continue to journey together and see how things end up, um, as you're writing and thinking about these things.

Miriam, could I invite you to go next to share?

Sure, thanks Amy!

So, I'm coming at it, well, with a bit of a backstory. So, when I was really little, I went to a nursery at the CDRCP, and this should go 'cause they do, there it was with other kids with disabilities, but, from five on, I was fully integrated into the university and so on, and I've always, um,

I've always,

advocated for the integrated system, for many reasons, but lately, when it added doing my PhD work, and hadn't been with a crip community, a mad and crip community, and hadn't been, really, integrating disability, that is, before. I wonder about, had I missed out on the opportunity, um, to, uh, my childhood, to be engaged with that community, am I making sense? 

Nodding happened. So I wasn't-- I didn't, I wasn't really active in and didn't really dip my toes into disability theology because I was, um, I was, stubborn or something, and said disability is only one part of me and I'm interested in so many other things, like pilots, and it's real, like, feminist theologians, like, most theological study, and so on. So the-- I don't know how my life would have been different if I-- if I

had that community, I was even kind of suspicious of that community, which sounds awful to say now, but I think it was some internalized ableism at play.

Um, so, I wish-- I wish I had some idea of that community and that work and I was-- I wasn't so stubborn. Right? to see the wisdom that came around that um Nancy I spent book came out when I was eight, so I wouldn't have been reading that, but I didn't interact with public until I was like in my 20s, mid-20s, so I-- I agree that theology comes when we need it, I agree with you, Wendy, but I-- yeah, I just wonder if I had that, uh, community and that, um, different knowledge earlier would I have been...  That's a long answer. I will invite Laura to go next. 

Sorry, I needed to find my unmute button. Thanks, Miriam. I, uh-- it's interesting, because I'm just listening to your answer and reflecting a little bit on some of the decisions we made be-- on behalf of our son, Matthew, we, um, he was of course, growing up after you, when there was enormous pressure to place children in fully included settings, and-- and I, theoretically, loved fully included settings, except what we found was that my son was often very isolated and excluded in those settings, and, um, to the point that we actually moved him to a congregated setting, um, and-- and the enormous guilt I felt around that for many years, um. Yeah, so I appreciate it, I appreciate your reflection. Um, on-- there are-- there are wonderful advantages, but also maybe some challenges to both approaches, and we need to-- to think of lots of different things when we make these decisions, and especially as parents, when we're making these decisions on behalf of our children, who, uh, who can't yet tell us what they want or need, or in some cases, like my son, may not ever be able to tell us in sophisticated ways what they want and need, so. Yeah, thank you for that, that was-- that was helpful to hear, actually. So, I find myself thinking of this question, and because it's such a personal question you're you're going to get a personal answer, here. So, some surprise for me, the answer is feminist theology. Um, I sort of tipped my hat last week, um, and I-- I feel I need to, like Miriam, add a bit of context to my answer, so I wonder if I'm the oldest in the group, um, we're not going to check on that, but, I might be! 

Um, and that means that I was growing up, um, and-- and being influenced, quietly, by the theological influences of say the 70s, 1970s, and while women were ordained in the United Church, I just double checked that date as we were-- we were recording, um, in my world, it was not yet common. Um, and there was still a strong patriarchal.. sort of, emphasis of the faith community I lived in, and while I attended and was a member of the United Church as a young person, my familial influences came from outside the United Church. Um, from, uh, traditions that would be, um, "less progressive", uh, "more conservative", I sort of put all those words in scare quotes, but there-- there would have been a very different theology. It was certainly more, uh, dominated, uh, sort of, oriented more towards men, and patriarchal influences, and a patriarchal interpretation of the Bible, it was also heavily infused by what I would say is the Prosperity Gospel. And so, um, yeah, and those would have been the voices in my head, and the voices informing my theology, as a young person and well into my 20s, possibly into my 30s, which is about the time Miriam probably was eight. I'm-- just to put it in context. 

Um, because that's about the time I probably would have met her at Five Oaks Family Camp, and she kicked our butt at cards. Um, but, I think, so getting back to feminist theology and why, why it-- it resonated for me, so I really didn't read feminist theology in any meaningful way, until my doctoral work, like other people. And, so I'm discovering feminist theology as a woman in her mid-40s who has children who grew up in a fairly patriarchal world, who was, at the time, a stay-at-home mom, because of caregiving responsibilities, um, and I'm caring for a profoundly disabled child with significant needs, and I'm being informed by-- I'm hearing the Prosperity Gospel, that if I only, sort of, espouse a certain faith, then somehow my situation might change, and things might get better, because things weren't great, um, I was-- I was completely isolated and over-- overwhelmed at this stage of my life, um, affluent, had lots of resources, I-- I-- I sort of want to own my privilege here, but also isolated and overwhelmed, so it was a complicated place to be. And I go back to school to pursue a PhD, because, why not, when you're overwhelmed. 

And I read this feminist theology, uh, the first book was I mentioned last week, Nakashima Brock and Parker's Proverbs of Ashes, which I read for a first year class, and for me that was life-changing. It was women, um, first of all, who embed their theology in stories. So it was immediately accessible to me. I-- I could relate to the stories, I could see myself in some of the stories, some of the stories-- now, um, there are stories of domestic abuse that are overwhelming as well, but-- but this-- this critiquing of suffering, and of suffering as a source of redemption, this valorization of suffering, was very impactful during a time in my life where I'm caring for a child who is visibly suffering, and by extension I'm suffering. Um, and I don't know what to do with this, and I'm being informed by the Prosperity Gospel, that tells me if I somehow don't, sort of, push up against the suffering, that I could be, in fact, exacerbating it, or bringing it on myself. 

Um, so this-- this feminist theology that started to actively critique that narrative, that-- that theology that I had grown up with, and that had just become the implicit voice in my head, was huge. Was huge. I've since gone on to read other-- other, um, other-- other feminist theologians, and intersectional feminist theologians, so I, uh, you know, probably started with first wave theologians, though Nak-- Well, Nakshima, Brock, were my my entry points, but we have read some first wave, sort of, feminist work, and then-- then gradually grew beyond that into intersectional feminist work, and it simply just has been enormously helpful, I appreciate the storied nature, I appreciate the multiplicity, as was highlighted earlier, I appreciate, um, the critiquing of-- of sort of some of the Sacred ideas we hold, um, in some of the more traditional churches, and really call us to account for them and look at different ways to engage them. Um, and for me, I just appreciate how it allowed me to re-narrate my own story, and to, uh, to consider my own theology during a very difficult time in my life, in such a way that it became helpful rather than harmful. Um, so, yeah. Personal answer, feminist theology, um, still love it. Uh, so-- so can I invite Shauna? Thank you.

Thanks, Laura, sure. Um, I resonate with so much of-- of what you say, and, um, Wendy, I also love that intersectional feminist theologies class, it, um, got my mind turning, and I thought, one of my thoughts in that class was, why didn't I know these names before, you know? And I remember thinking back, um, years ago, when I would ask the question, like, okay where are the-- where are the, you know, feminine voices here, um, where are the women in the syllabi, and all of this, and, um, someone asked me, what women are you reading? and I thought, like, I don't know. And so, I've kind of--

One of the entry points into feminist theology for me was Sally Mcveigh's work, um, and it was kind of like, when I was in my undergrad, I'm just finishing up my BA, and I was so-- I had done, um, economics and environmental studies, and was thinking about the state of the world, and all of the suffering that I had talked about for the last five years of my BA, and all these things that I was learning, and I thought, if I can't find a view of God, an articulation of God, that makes sense in a world that is suffering, in the world that I saw happening around me, then I-- then I was like, well then I can't-- then that faith isn't for me, and so I had this huge question of like, the theologies that I heard growing up, didn't make sense with the world that I saw, that I was living in, that I was experiencing, and so, I ended up interning at a Christian environmental organization, and one of the the educational director, I walked up to him one day, and I thought I was being kind of like, sassy and hilarious, and I was like, "do you have any, like, feminist, like, eco-theology that's kind of anarchist, and also", and I throw all these words out at him, and he was like, yes! And he handed me this, like, stack of books, um, that I still appreciate, and one of them was, um, a book by Sally McVeigh, I think Blessed are the Consumers was just coming out at that point, um, and I read it, like, voraciously, I just like-- every single little piece, um, and I looked her up, and she was working at the Vancouver School of Theology, as the distinguished Theologian in Residence, and so, I started to think about, okay, well, if you can articulate God in a way that makes sense here, then maybe there's other articulations of God that makes sense in, um, a multitude of other places, too, and-- and so that kind of started my journey, Sally Mcveigh's words. Um, I mean her metaphor is God and-- and there's so much of her that kind of, has been steeped into my early, um, explorations into these questions, and, um, I think to answer the question explicitly, I-- today looking back, I kind of-- I would say that I do wish I had a different theology of the body when I was growing up. Um. 

I, um, I wish that it-- it had come-- come into my life sooner, um, and this has like, connections with so many themes that you all have talked about already, it's suffering, especially for, um, I grew up in a, a kind of semi-complementarian, or quietly complementarian, um, uh, culture, uh, Church culture, and I just didn't quite understand that materiality, this is also where Sally Mcveigh, like, comes in again, was like, materiality is important, and it's not only important but it's valuable, in and of itself, exactly as it is, so, um. That has all kinds of implications for, um, are we meant to suffer? Um, if we're looking forward eschatologically one day, like these ideas of, um, cleanliness and hope in the future, this, uh, clean white linens one day, if we only do XYZ in the present, and it just-- erases and disappears some of the suffering in the present. Um, and so actually, when you said Rita Nakashima Brock, her book with Rebecca Parker, Saving Paradise, kind of touches on some of these themes, and I-- and that has been a really influential space for me, as well. I'm looking at at their words, um, but, yeah, I guess, a theology of the body, I wish I had had, a theology that told me that, uh, my body the way that it was, exactly as it was, um, was not dangerous in any way, um, was not a cause for, um, my own grief, but was, and is, good as it is. Um, and, I didn't need to work at anything, it just was as it was.

So, I'll leave it there, I could go on and on about body theology forever, but I won't.

Thanks so much, Shawna, that's awesome. I'm so glad to hear that you've read so many things that a lot of us have read, and I-- I think I'm behind a little bit in some of the feminist theology, so I need to catch up. I've been writing down some of the titles as y'all have been talking, um, so I guess I'm last. Um, I-- I wanted to just bring up some stuff I've been like, ruminating on, and so-- and, like, you know like, the dissertation processes like, you start, and then you have to have an end, so, I have been ruminating on some God image stuff in my final chapter, and so, I thought I would talk about that a little bit today. 

Um, and, so, um, in the class I teach in the summer that Shawna has, uh, helped me with this past summer, thank you so much Shawna, for all your input, and all your help with that, um, we-- we look at God images, and, um, we-- there's one image of God that I pull-- I've pulled from actually, an atheist-- atheist clothing website, which is like, I didn't know that that was a thing, but there is a clothing website. So, um, there's this one image of Jesus, uh, wearing a straight jacket. And so Jesus is just, like, standing there, his, like, arms are crossed in the straight jacket, and he has a crown of thorns, and I-- on, and he's just like, looking at you, the viewer, and I thought it was so compelling, when I first saw the image, and I wanted to bring that to the class for us to talk about this image of Jesus, um, who, uh, I can't remember the scripture reference, I'd have to look it up, but there's a part in Mark where-- a verse in the gospel of Mark, where Jesus's family says that he's gone out of his mind. So there's this idea that, has Jesus gone crazy? 

Um, and his family thinks he has, and so, we sit with the image for a bit in class, and, um, it's interesting to see some of the push and pull. Some students really like the image, they're like this is good, I think I feel at home with this image, it-- it, um, really resonates with me, and some other students really don't like it, they're like, there's no flipping way that this is-- like this is, like, sacrilege, or something, you know? 

Um, but, um, I just thought maybe I would talk a little bit about Anna Maria Rizzuto's work on the God image, um, from the birth of the Living God, and I-- I just have, like, a section of her book. It's available on internet archive, if you want to take a look at it, um, that just talks a little bit about where-- like what the God image is, and, like, how we develop it when we're young. Um, and then maybe I'll just try to tie it up with the image of the crazy Jesus after I finish reading this. 

So this is from The Birth of the Living God by Anna-- Anna Maria Rizzuto, and this is page eight. Okay, she says: "it is also true that God is not the creation of the child alone. God is found in the family, most of the time he is offered by the parents to the child, he is found in everyday conversation, art, architecture, and social events. He is presented as invisible but nonetheless real. Finally, most children are officially introduced to that "House of God", a place where God supposedly "dwells" one way or the other. That house is governed by rules very different from many others. The child is introduced to ritual, to the official behaviour he is expected to exhibit there, and to other events in which the encounter with God is socially organized and pre-arranged. But the child brings his own God, the one he has himself put together to this official encounter. Now the God of religion and the God of a child hero face one another, reshaping, rethinking, an endless rumination, fantasies, and defensive maneuvers, will come to help the child in his difficult task. This second birth of God may decide the conscious religious future of the child. This is the critical moment for those interested in catechesis. If they want to understand the progress of an individual child, they must have some knowledge of the private God the child brings with him. No child arrives at the house of God without his pet God under his arm. The natural history of God does not end there. Unless completely repressed and isolated defensively from its complex roots, the representation of God, like any other, is reshaped, refined, and retouched throughout life. With aging, the question of the existence of God becomes a personal matter to be faced or avoided. For most people, the occasion for deciding on the final representation of their God comes in contemplating their own impending death."

So, um, I-- I just want to recommend um Anna Maria Rizzuto's book, as, like, the most fascinating book, uh, to read, so, in her study she basically takes-- like, it's like 25 patients, um, who should call psychiatric patients, and, um, like, takes down this, like, amazing, like, history of, like, from birth to where they are now, and, like, analyzes, and puts together, um, sketches of what-- who their God is. Um, and I think one thing that really, kind of, like-- honestly, like, blew my mind when I was reading this book, is that she says that we become the image of God that we want to see. 

And I-- I've been thinking a lot about that, um, you know, what is the God that I-- who is the God that I want to see? You know, why is the image of Jesus in a straight jacket so compelling to me, and what does it mean that-- what would it mean if a-- if a church community or, or, like, us as a part of the mad and crip community could embrace that image, and where would that Jesus go, and what would that Jesus do, and not do, and say, and not say, these are, like, the questions that I've been, sort of, like, tumbling around in my mind as I've been finishing my thesis, hopefully knock on wood, finishing. Um, and also just, like, as I think about where I want to go with my, sort of, work moving forward, um, yeah! So-- so that's that, and, uh, yeah, I'm-- I'm glad you could all be a part of my exploding brain as I read Anna Maria Rizzuto, so. I wonder if anybody has any questions for for-- for, uh, anyone about what we've said, um, this morning?

Can I just jump in and respond, and, actually, thank you, for that last little bit about thinking through the Imago day, and I talk about that, and I think about it, and in the classes I teach I use all sorts of provocative images, but I've never thought about what-- what did I need. Um, I've always thought about it in very broad, academic terms, and it's-- and I'm-- I'm almost afraid that lightning is going to strike me as I answer this question, because it's going to feel so incredibly sacrilegious, um. And it's like, I'm almost afraid to say it out loud. 

Okay, we like these kind of questions and, and stuff Laura. 

I know!

May we all be struck. 

Yeah, it's like, okay, please don't-- please don't strike me down, God, um, but actually-- so, what you-- what probably you need to know, again, context is everything, is my son died two weeks into the pandemic, and we only had his internment a week ago because of how the pandemic influenced funerals. And, um, the person who presided over his funeral, of course, started with the typical internment, um, stuff that involves prayers, and bible passages, and I ripped them all out, and I replaced them with passages about Tinkerbell, and fairies, and Goodnight Moon. Um, because that was appropriate, my son loved fairies, and-- and so I thought, what do I need the image of God to be, and as I'm listening to you I thought, the image of God is Tinkerbell to me. Like, a fairy! A woman, first of all, who loves the garden, and can fly through the air, and yes, I know, I'm going back to sort of this happy image, but, because for me, the image that worked thinking about my son, was that my son is with God now, which means he's flying with the fairies, and that was sort of the image that I was able to make work for his internment, and-- and I never thought, wow! The image of God, at least in this particular moment, I like other images of God a lot, but might be Tinkerbell. And, anyway thanks for that, that was a lot of fun, um, and, uh, lightning hasn't struck, so, uh, I'm gonna sign off now. While I'm ahead! 

Thank you so much, Laura. It's good to play with these images, and disrupt-- disrupt what we usually see.

Anyone else have any wonderings about something that somebody said?

Miriam, I wanted to ask you, why are you suspicious of mad and crip community? Were you worried that you were going to become boring or something, like what-- what was the suspicion?

I'm not sure it was suspicious because.. They seem like, uh-- I was suspicious of segregation, I guess, growing up. In a very, um, anti-segregation, um, society in the 90s. Um, and I was suspicious that they didn't have, uh, I assumed, not just remembered, I assumed their community was money, even though I was often assimilated in my, um, non-segregated class. So-- and I wondered about becoming a single issue, uh, versus a lot, so, um, like, I'm gay, and I want to be gay, and care about sexuality. So, I don't, I can't put my finger on why I was suspicious, why I was-- I was, for not very good reasons, and I think I missed out on relationships that could have been-- could have been very informational.

Well, thanks so much for that, yeah, that helps-- helps us to understand a little bit more. And I know you and I have talked many times, as we've been, like, creating the journal, and getting the podcast rolling, and stuff how we-- we've been suspicious, as well, of, um, sort of, disability theology spaces, um, that sort of recycles certain narratives, 

Yeah.

So, maybe, maybe I'm feeling a little bit of conviction, as they say, my Evangelical past is coming back to haunt me right now, but, like, maybe-- maybe we've missed out a little bit, too, by assuming what, um, you know, what might be there, in those spaces. 

Yeah. Wendy, you look like you have something. 

Yeah, I-- I think-- I can only speak for myself, of course, as we all can, but, when I was first diagnosed with epilepsy, um, I was 28, and, I was, I'll say, wholly outed, because I had my first grand mal seizure in the choir loft at church on Thanksgiving Sunday. So, there was no, like, hiding, if you will.

Um, but, after that, I just started telling everyone, "oh, no, it was just a one-off, I'm fine", and I moved from the congregation that I was serving into another job, and told nobody that I was epileptic. And nobody at my new job knew, ever. And actually, I had been having seizures since I was 10 years old and didn't realize it. Because, my family just called them "episodes" and I was never-- I never-- no one really realized what was going on with me, and, the more seizures I had, the less I was able to hide them, of course.

Um, but also, the more I, kind of, decided that I wouldn't try to hide them anymore, that I would like, work with my workplace to--to, kind of, establish some living in to-- like, um, accessibility policy, the more I realized that some of my friends and colleagues just honestly stopped talking to me.

And, that was a very challenging time, to be honest, I had a couple of friends who just out-and-out, friend dumped me, like, who met and said, I just am not comfortable, I don't have the empathy that I feel I should have, and so, I don't feel I'm my best self around you, and just stopped being friends with me. And so, I think that part of the challenge, when, for me, anyways, was that I knew that like, wholly owning my diagnosis and moving into communities like the one that we have here, meant a shift in my identity. It meant a shift in my communities, it meant-- and that is a significant identity shift. So, I'm not sure, for me, it was so much suspicion of new communities, as it was grief over losing old communities. And, that's not to say that wasn't necessary, but it's not any less painful. 

For sure, it's very painful. And thank you for naming that, and talk about coming out quickly. When I was 29, or 30, or older than that, even though I've-- even though my disability has been from birth, um, that craving of identity, um. Yeah, it-- it changed me and how I relate to people, and how I relate to myself, yeah. Thank you, Wendy.

You're welcome, and thank you, and, I think, too, I'll just say this last little bit and then you can move on to other voices, that, in the, um, Shauna, what you were saying about-- about body Theology, and I think that part of-- part of it, for me, was relates to, body theology, and being raised in a church, and as a white woman in Canada, with the idea that white women's bodies are supposed to be nice. And non-conflictual, and kind, and quiet. And so, the fact that I have a disability that sometimes I cannot control, which is very obtrusive. It was like, trying to keep that nice, and non-- non-obtrusive, and quiet, was absolutely impossible. And, the-- the guilt that I felt about that, was overwhelming at times. And, trying to keep it quiet was very challenging, and was at-- at-- in constant conflict with this sense of how I was raised in church. Right? And, yeah, anyway. I'll pass it off.

Yeah, no, that makes-- that makes a lot of sense, I think, um, like Purity culture, for me, covers more than just, um, like, our sexuality, and our-- our sexual acts, as we're, you know, growing up, it-- it kind of covers everything, for everyone. It is this idea that, um, our bodies in every way, must be a particular way, you know? Um, they must be quiet, and unobtrusive, and don't make anyone stumble, you know? And so, as you're talking, I just heard those words again in my mind, uh, of like, "don't make a brother stumble!" is how I heard it, right, but, um, it more generally, like, don't make anyone stumble, don't be too loud, don't do anything to take up too much space, um, so thank you for sharing that, it resonated.

Yeah, we should do an entire podcast episode on Purity culture. That would be so interesting, I would love to hear what-- what everybody has to say about that, and yeah, how it affects-- still affects us, as we're, uh, we're older. So Laura had to jet off because she's going to-- she has a bunch of meetings today, so that's why Laura's voice has-- is not, no longer on the on the episode, um, does anybody have anything else that they want to ask, or anything else you want to chat about before we end today?

Well, um, thank you so much to all of you for being here, Miriam and I really appreciate it, and, uh, we're looking forward to next week, when we're going to have another-- or the next episode, where we're going to have another round table with all of us here, answering some of the questions that our listeners have, um, for us, and we-- like Miriam said, we probably won't know the answer, but, it'll be good for us to dig in and discuss. So, thank you so much everyone for being here with us.

Thanks everyone!

Thank you!

Thank you!