On this episode of the podcast we have a roundtable talk on what disability and/or mental health theologies make us angry and offer some antidotes. Watch on YouTube with closed captions here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEa2P7cCVXE
On this episode of the podcast we have a roundtable talk on what disability and/or mental health theologies make us angry and offer some antidotes. Watch on YouTube with closed captions here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEa2P7cCVXE
Welcome to the Mad and Crip Theology Podcast,
hosted by Miriam Spies and Amy Panton, which comes out of the Canadian Journal of Theology, Mental Health and Disability. We both live and work lands that have been homes and remain homes to the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Haudenosaunee, the Huron Wendat, the Neutral; and the Ojibway/Chippewa peoples and other peoples who have cared for the land.. We are grateful for the opportunity to live and work on this land and are mindful of the need to repair broken covenants. This podcast is an opportunity to model how faith communities can engage in theological and spiritual conversations around madness and cripness. If you need a full transcript you can find videos on our Youtube channel. We want to say before we begin that topics and conversations we are raising throughout our time together are often hard! They are hard for mad and crip people ourselves and hard for our families and loved ones. So, do what you need to do to take care of yourselves, your bodies, minds, and hearts. And now, here is our episode.
Well, hello out there on the internet, and welcome to the Mad and Crip theology podcast. It is our first time recording in the morning, so, if you're listening to this you're lucky because you can't see our bed head, at least my bed head. But uh, we will we'll see how things go with with morning recordings um. And today, it's myself, and Miriam Spies, like, like normal. I'm Amy Panton, and we also have Wendy Cranston here, and Lauren McGregor, so we are very excited, we're going to be doing a round table today, and we're going to be talking about what mental health and disability theology makes us angry, and why, and getting some suggestions for corrections, as well as --if we have enough time, we're going to talk about what theologies do you now know that you wish your younger self would have known, and why. So that's what's coming up today in today's podcast.
And we are very excited because we actually have a couple of announcements to tell you today. We are finally at that point where we're organized enough where we could do this. So, we wanted to let you all know that we have launched a new a new publishing press here, uh, the team has launched the uh it's called the Mad and Crip Theology Press, so we're going to be a Canadian publishing house that works with people with lived experience of madness and cripness, and also uh caregivers, and so we're really excited about that, and we've just launched our first call for content. We're going to be working on a book about caregiving, so if you want to hear more about that you can head over to our website, it's: madandcriptheologypress.ca and you'll be able to read some more about the caregiving call for content, and we are excited to bring some stories of caregivers to life in this upcoming volume. And so I think Miriam's going to tell us about her second announcement. Yeah, in a few weeks we're going to record a podcast and answer your questions, so hopefully you have some burning questions on your mind of topics we may not have covered yet, or you might want to know more deeply about, so if you head over to our Facebook page: the Canadian Journal of Theology, Mental Health, and Disability, you can leave a comment there, or you can find our email address there to email us, and we'll be recording that on October 7th, so if you have questions before then, we would love to hear from you.
And the final announcement we have today, is we will be sending out the call for content for, uh, the spring issue of the journal very soon, and the focus will be on caregiving as well, so we're looking for stories in caregiving, as well as, if anyone out there is working on, um, articles around caregiving, or creative work, uh we'd really love to hear from you. So we'll be sending that out within the next couple of weeks on our Facebook page, and also to all of our Journal subscribers. So I think that's the house ke-- all the housekeeping we have this morning. And everything that's for caregiving we're looking for content from caregivers, and their receivers, and sometimes that is a blurry line, so wherever you fit, you're welcome to submit.
Thanks Miriam, yeah, such a good point. All right, so are we ready to dig into some of these very, like, head-scratchy questions? Um, I think that the, um, the consensus this morning when we were talking before we started recording, was that these were easier to answer. So, um, who'd like to get us started off this morning, with talking about the mental health or disability theology that makes you angry, and why?
Laura, do you want to start us off? I can see everybody like, oh..
I kind of wanted you to get us going, because I'm sort of dying to know what you think, but I'll answer it, it's up to you.
Okay, yeah, if you don't mind getting us started. I think what we're gonna do today is just kind of do it free form, so everybody can jump in, and--
Sounds good. Um, after saying, "Yay, the questions felt easier this week", um, I will admit that I struggled a little bit with this one. Um, in terms of what theology, disability theology, really, um, really bothered me, and I, I, probably waffled between uh Jean Vanier's work and Hans Reinder's work. Um, and I think maybe I'll just come down and and sort of discuss it broadly rather than isolating it to, um, to a particular writer, and I think, what's, uh, what I really struggled with, um, is, is, work that was largely written through the lens of caregiving, which is my area of interest, and really focused on the caregivers experience providing care, and their spiritual growth and transformation, as a result of that care, but doing it in such a way that when I read the work, it felt like the individual, usually an individual with intellectual disability, was was being seen for their use to the caregiver.
Um, in terms of their journey of transformation, and whether that was intentional, or not, um, I think, I think it probably wasn't intentional, but, um, to-- as someone who had provided care for over 20 years to a child with significant intellectual disabilities, this emphasis on becoming human, say, if we're thinking of Jean Vanier, through the lens of considering the humanity of someone with intellectual disabilities and how that served their need to become more deeply connected to their own sense of humanity, and place in the world, made me very uncomfortable, because it felt like people with intellectual disabilities were being used as an intellectual Muse. Were being not valued for their personhood, um, such that their personhood was sometimes even, being questioned or being discussed using terms that I found derogatory, um, and, and, sort of this whole lens that that people were considering caregiving through. And, that, you know, and I've played with that, and, and, where do we go with that, and, and, it's it's hard work, and I admit, but but ultimately as the mother of of a child with intellectual disabilities, I-- my, my, response is, my child was not put on this Earth to meet the needs of other people, their spiritual needs, their spiritual transformation needs, their philosophical needs, whatever. He was put on this Earth because he's an amazing human being, and has his own gifts to bring, the way we all have gifts to bring, and he's not here..
Again, it's that inspirational porn piece, he's not here to meet other people's needs for spiritual inspiration. And so I think ultimately, if I were to pinpoint some of the theological work that most annoys me, it would probably be that. Um, and I know I'm not the only one, there's been lots of people who talk about this, and who write about it, and critique it, um. But I also worry that despite the fact that this conversation is ongoing, that, we're-- I find, personally, as I navigate my day-to-day life, these inspirational porn type conversations and ideas are still prevalent, they're out there, and.. I worry about that. Um, because ultimately it diminishes, and diminished, my son's personhood. Um, so that would be, I think that would be my sort of theological pet peeve. So, yeah I'm gonna deek out, should I like lob the ball to someone else now? Hey Amy, how about you?
Okay, sure, thanks there, actually can I ask you one question? It-- or so what's the antidote to inspiration porn, do you think?
Well, that's a great question. I think ultimately, um, I, I, think this this fundamental commitment, and, and, I would, I would, sort of, throw this out there, and then ask all of you guys to jump in, because I, you know, I don't really feel I have a brilliant or great answer, but this fundamental commitment to the fact that all of us have gifts, all of us have strengths, all of us have an important story to bring to the world, um, and, and, we're all part of that, you know, this fundamental honouring of all abilities, and disabilities, and how they, um, are part of this unique Patchwork quilt of humanity, um, that all comes together in really, sort of, neat and vibrant and colourful ways, but I think fundamentally, where we need to go, is we, you know, we need to shut up, and let people with disabilities, um, and caregivers, and, and, this is where I feel I jump into the conversation in a more meaningful way, and caregivers whose voices have often been silenced and remained behind closed doors because they were too busy providing care, let them tell the stories. And, and, let them figure stuff out, and let them, uh, do the talking, and maybe we need to have other people do less talking, so. I think that's my thought, but I guess I'd be really interested in your thoughts.
I-- I can say I definitely agree with you Laura, that-- that-- yeah. We need to prioritize the voices of people with lived experience. Like I'm gonna get a t-shirt that says that, or maybe I'll just get it like tattooed on my chest, that's kind of like, my, what I-- Well, I think all our listeners know, and people who've read the journal, know how important lived experience is to us. Um..
Can we have Mad and Crip Theology t-shirts?
Yes!
And that stuff?
Yes. Oh, we'll make some swag.
Does anybody want to respond to Laura before I start rambling?
Um, I, I'd love to, um, I wonder if part of.. part of the challenge of.. sorry, I'm thinking and talking at the same time. Um, that we face in churches specifically, I'm, I'm not a disability theologian, specifically, I write a little bit in that area because of my lived experience, but, I am a person who writes about, um, about mainline theology, and, so one of the things that I, um, that I write about in my work, looks at, sort of, the character of difference. And how, how we function in churches still really pays attention to almost a hierarchy of practice, in our churches, and that we claim to be inclusive, and yet, inclusivity still wants to align to this hierarchy of practice. And, so, there's certain Ministries to which we imagine certain bodies are allowed to be included. And so, while we claim inclusion, there is still this social imagination about who is included where in our churches. And, so, there's ideas about who is included in charitable or social justice Ministries, and who is included in governance Ministries, and who is included in worship Ministries. And worship Ministries, I think, are the hardest Ministries to be included into. And that is I think, part of the answer about how to.. how to, correct, if you will, the ministry or the theologies that you are most frustrated and angered by, Laura, is deconstructing that hierarchy of inclusion of Ministries. And, and, talking about, about, the character of difference, and rather than viewing difference as hierarchical, viewing difference as a value of of difference, and how do we view each other's difference as as valuable and relatable?
Yeah. I think, to me, there's also this whole idea of difference versus deficit. Um and, and, difference is exciting, and difference is rich, and textured, and, and, wonderful, um,
Yes.
And we have this idea that, the deficit then, very neatly fits into this idea of hierarchy. Um, because then you are providing Ministry, or service, or support, to someone, with or who is lesser than, and I have scare quotes, uh, going for those who can't see me, um. I, I, think I think I agree with you wholeheartedly. Exactly. Yeah.
Thanks so much for that, Wendy. I'm, I was thinking too, maybe we could, af-- um. When we post the podcast, we could post some resources if people want to dig a little bit deeper into some of the topics that we're talking about today. Um. Well maybe I'll share my thing that makes me angry. Um, I've been reflecting on this a lot actually, just because, um, the summer I taught a course called Mental Health and Christian Theology, and I think in my mind, um, that I feel like, the church is like, at a certain level, and then I start to hear, I mean, with regards to mental health stuff, and then I hear some of my students say things, and I'm like ah! Like, are we back-- is this like Medieval Times? How are we--? How is this happening today?! So, one of the things that I heard from quite a few of my students this summer, was that mental illness is caused by a demon possession. And I'm so-- I was shocked to hear that that is still something that people are being taught in their Church, and um, so, like we were just discussing, antidote, so, um, this one student in particular who, who, was finding it very difficult to break away from that kind of model, um, I encouraged them in their final project to consider how their Church could be encouraged to, um, think a little deeper or broadly, about the source of mental illness. Mental distress, whatever kind of language you want to use, so. Um, so they crafted a beautiful, just a beautiful project, that would help, um, get their their pastors, and some of their other support staff at the church, thinking, kind of, a little bit more outside of the box for them, and, thinking about different sort of origins of mental distress. Um, and so, the the book that I recommended that they use for this project was the Bible and Mental Health, which came out, like, a year or two ago? I think I recommended it here on this podcast before, but, it's kind of like a really great, uh, way-- "way in" quote unquote, for people who are very, like, it has to be in the Bible for us to teach it. So it's a way that bridges that conversation between, like, um, lived experience and Bible.
And um, yeah I, and like, stepping a-- like aside a little bit, or or thinking about just demon possession in general, I-- I was thinking last night, as I was as preparing to-- to-- to talk today on the podcast, that like.. Oh, I used to volunteer at CAMH, which is the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, it's the largest Mental Health Hospital in Canada, and um, I remember, I-- I-- we used to provide, uh, services, like church services, on one of the wards that was like, where people were the most unwell. So a lot of clients have schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, they're very... it's a very, um... people are very unwell, there-- most of them are sent there directly from the ER, so it's like, very like, like, of almost like a violent, turbulent, thing where they have to be sent directly there, oftentimes in their pyjamas, like it's just very like chaotic.
And so, I remember, um, I, I, worked there for two years, volunteered there for two years, and so my heart would always break when I would see certain clients who kept come-- coming back to this ward, I would always want to see that they had gotten-- not gotten better, but they were doing better, like maybe they could be put on into a different ward where there wasn't-- it wasn't as like, hectic and chaotic for them, so I just remembered this one client who had the word devil tattooed on their forehead, these huge block letters, and I wondered, I never asked them, because they never came to the the services, but, I always wondered if somebody did that to them? You know, somebody held them down, and did that to them, and just how awful and um abusive that would have been. And that will be on their forehead forever, and it's it wasn't like that cute script that we have now where people get like, "cry baby" like little peep above their eyes I'm talking about like, enormous block letters, like the entirety of their forehead was covered in this tattoo.
And, um. I don't know, I, I guess I just kind of want to dedicate it-- want to dedicate my talk today to that client. And I hope they're doing better. Um, I really hope that being better, and, yeah, I think that-- that person became like the model for me of like, how shitty things can be, really, really, shitty things can be, and how we can pigeonhole people, um, with mental illness into these, um, places where they really don't deserve to belong. So, yeah.
Uh. I, sorry, the second question, I guess, I should follow up with myself on this, how is I correct-- how would-- How would I correct this? So, I mean, uh, I think the answer for me is always psycho education, you know, educating people about like, um, the origins of mental distress, and, um, not, not always finding a spiritual cause or a problem. Um, and I think listeners know at this point, who've been around for a while, that I'm definitely not a believer in the medical model, but I also, um.. and I also believe that there's a spiritual component to mental distress, so, there's some like, blurring of lines when I'm talking about this, but, like, mental distress is not even possession. Um. this is not what it is. So, um, I know for Canadians who are listening, there was recently a story in CBC where in Saskatchewan some kids were exercised at a Bible Camp, and it's like, I don't know, I just really hope this kind of stuff isn't coming back into the-- into the consciousness of.. a lot of, um, people of faith, that were resorting back to this kind of medieval, um, way of thinking about mental distress.
Yeah. Sorry if that was a downer, everyone. Everybody's like looking kinda.. sad, sorry.
Alright, good, I was thinking how my theology, theology that make me angry, kind of fits with you and me and with, you know, and a bit with Wendy, um, two things I want to talk about today is, the theology of healing, and the theology of kind of raising people up as super crips to make their body look better, right? That whole job. Now my mind is thinking with when I was ordained, I remember someone coming to me and saying how significant it was that the church ordained me. And yes, it was significant, it is significant that the church ordained me, but it was like I was-- my ordination was making the church more ideal, more super crip, more inclusive.
And had they known the actual story of my ordination at the church, that didn't come off that well, um, they might not have said that. Meant a good event intensions meant to go to, um, be taken seriously as a manager and all that. They just saw me as a symbol of what they thought the church was, and, and, that nothing about your goodness, I have a chapter coming out soon about the super crip body where I'm much more articulate, um, but, the, the thing that drives me crazy is the healing, uh, theology which we've talked about on this podcast before, and some, some people find the healing, um, possibility as profound and good, I find it as diminishing who I am now, where my body is now, um, and even though this week my body has been in pain from overdue
um, and yeah, I would not be the same person without my body, without my CP. So I maintain that: you've been when I'm in pain and I know that God does work through doctors and through, through scientists to make my life better, but not to make me some kind of whole, or some kind of norm that makes it easier for everybody else around me, if that makes sense. So those are two big, uh, theologies that, that piss me off, and that have, um, impacted my life. Maybe not on a daily basis, but, on a, on a somewhat regularly, regular basis where people have wanted to pray for me, or give up a chair and instead of sitting, yes, because that's a result of my disability and so on. So that probably is down there too! I wonder, yeah, how that resonates with other people.
Well, it definitely resonates with me, Miriam, um, I think I've told listeners before that my, uh, in my family, um, there's actually five children, not four. My sister passed away when she was four days old, um, due to, um, her disabilities, and my parents had the same kind of crap said to them after she died that, you know, it was who sinned and, you know, um, somebody did something to make God angry. And it's just not-- I think those, um, those wounds are still.. My parents still carry those wounds, and, I don't know if I-- maybe I'm at the point in my life now where I'm not as sympathetic to people being taught certain theologies, I think that, um, if that's what they were taught, there isn't, like, don't we have minds of our own? Can't we figure out that saying that kind of stuff to people is absolutely devastating and horrible? I don't know, what do you all think about that? I feel sometimes like we just say like, "Oh, the church taught us that," or, "This is the theologies that we were handed down from the Bible, like, Jesus always ran around and healed people," um, why don't people know that that's so damaging?
I think that some people just don't know what to say so they make up an easy, easy quote, um, either things they've heard in society or
in church. It's not only church that teaches that, it's also the Medical Association of Disability that seeks cure and so on. So it's kind of wider society too.
I agree with that, Miriam, a lot.
And, uh, Amy, to follow up on your question, I think that there's a lot of interaction and interweaving, if you will, between theologies and, like, our social systems of power. Right? That seems kind of simple when you say it out loud, but, I think that it's very true, and even if we go back for a minute to the news story that was on CBC about the exorcism of the boy at the, um, church camp in Saskatchewan.
That was, like, something that happened in a whole built context over the week of that camp, and the-- according to the news stories, the boy was in medical distress, and likely the medical distress that he was suffering was a seizure due to the fact that the leader who performed the exorcism had sleep deprived all of the boys who were who were in his cabin because he kept them up all night for the week preaching at them about demon possession, and devil possession, and so when the boy had the medical issue and then the leader started to "exorcise him", and I'm air quoting, then none of the boys who were in the cabin moved, or left, or assisted, because they were all so afraid that if they moved then the so-called demon who left the boy during the exorcism would then enter their bodies. They were all so afraid by the indoctrination of this leader, and that is all theology about power, about this leader just controlling this group of young boys, and the the response that the camp leadership and church leadership gave to CBC was, "well aren't we lucky to have someone amongst us who had this skill set." What?!
So, I some of the questions we really need to be asking about theologies that make us angry, is what is the power that's being held behind that theology. When people say things to us, like, well don't you want to be healed, it's like what's the power question behind that? What are you hoping for in asking me that question And how do we start to deconstruct those powers within our churches, within our theological circles, and that is a big systematic issue, clearly. But that is really the issue, how do we start to shift our theologies in order to push at those those issues of power? Huge question.
That's so important, Wendy. Um. I'm a little aware of time, Miriam and I were just doing our little Zoom chat, we're a little aware of time, so I think we're gonna ask Wendy to share her thing that makes her angry, and, uh, we'll probably come back to the second question we had posed at the beginning the next time we get together for our round table. So I'm gonna invite you, Wendy. We do like to talk, we do go on.
Maybe I've just been talking so nicely that you weren't aware that this irritates me all so much!
Yes.
This relationship between power and theology and the, the continuous, um, pushing of theology in order to retain power in certain areas. This is what makes me angry, the whole-- it's not like one particular theology, it's a-- this whole systematic setup of theologies that keeps power in certain pans. That's what makes me so frustrated, the thought that a boy at a church camp, who's in medical distress, would not get the help that he needs, because the leader is more concerned that he pulled the power in the situation. That makes me so angry, so angry, that I don't, like-- how do we.. how do we start to shift that theology, when the theology is tied so tightly to the whole social structure of patriarchy, patriarchal power? That is how I'm angry, and how would I correct it? Well, that is like a bazillion year old question. So, part of how we correct it is things like exactly what we're doing here, now, where we try to daily practice theologies that are-- the discussion and writing of theologies that are cooperative outside of the regular academic structure that is so competitive. This is a piece of it that we're doing right now. Maybe I just need to be a little more ragey and a little less polite.
I think-- I really like the word ragey. That just makes me very happy. Would anybody like to respond to Wendy?
Just to say that I was applauding, she could-- you know, uh, listeners can't see me unless they've got it on YouTube, but I'm applauding as, as, Wendy was speaking. I love the ideas. Yeah, and I agree.
Thank you, Laura. Thank you. I know we're almost out of time, but, I'm just gonna add this little tidbit in, maybe not right up the disability alley, but, my kid started University last week, and, um, they asked me to help them find a church, and, so I did a little bit of searching, and the church closest to their campus has no-- virtually no web presence at all. They have a closed Facebook group, and no website, to the point where they don't realize that their web domain is being used by a hardcore porn site. It's like, how? What a fail.
What a fail indeed.
What a fail.
Yeah, Wendy and I were talking about this other day, the other day, it's like you're looking for nuns, but you get quote unquote, sexy nuns when you go to that. Anyway, sorry, bad joke.
Ugh. Like-- for-- I -- for a church basically on a campus. Massive fail.
Yeah
Anyway. A little off topic.
Talk about not engaging in evangelism.
I also want to just-- I'll pee back a little bit on to Wendy, and and maybe in some ways setting this up then, for our next conversation, because, the questions we were provided in anticipation of today's podcast, were as Amy mentioned at the outset, what sort of most bothers us, and then what is the theology, or the the theology, what were the theologies that you most wished you had known earlier, and, to me, um, listening to Wendy speak, and, and, just reflecting on our broader conversation, um, and, and, sorry, Amy, and, my brain is going in two different directions, Amy I wanted to just add, the worst thing that was-- one of the worst things that was said to me as a-- as a parent was, I was out in public with my son, Matthew, who is-- was visibly disabled, and someone came over to me and said, pointing to Matthew, "That is an indication of the devil's presence on Earth," so, this idea of... yeah, exactly, and, and, if for those who are not watching, many people are expressing horror, so, yeah, um, it's it's deeply hurtful and we wonder why some of us have issues with the church, um, but so getting back to what I was going to say, and, and, maybe leading us up to our future talk, um, down the road, the thing I wished I had known about, and didn't know about, so I'm gonna answer the question, but then not really answer it, um, was feminist theology.
Yeah.
It's, it's-- I wasn't introduced to it until really, my doctoral work, um, and it was a gift. And, um, and I think that picks up on some of the things Wendy was talking about. Um, in terms of collaboration versus competition, and lived experience, and stuff that could be really, really, exciting to talk about. So, I just want to toss that out there, that, that, listening to Wendy immediately thought, yeah I'm so grateful for feminist theology. And theologians, feminist theologians, of which maybe we're all part of this group in some way.
Laura, is there one or two books of feminist theology that you'd recommend to our listeners that they could pick up if they've, like, never read it, or always wanted to read something?
Yes, I'm actually thinking, can I grab it from my shelf, is it right behind me... So, the joke is, when my husband-- so, for those again who can't see, who are listening versus watching us on YouTube, I'm sitting in front of a blue bookshelf that is full of books, and my husband's favourite question, when someone walks into my workspace, is is to say, or to ask, can you see how Laura organizes her books? Are there themes? Can you see the themes? And there are, and behind me there are two shelves of feminist theology books. My favourite is Proverbs of Ashes by Nakashima Brock and Parker. Um and I maybe can type the, the, reference in, or give it to Amy and she can share it, that was probably my gateway feminist theology book. And I read it for a course, a first year course in my doctoral work, not really knowing what I was going to be reading.
Um, but I, I, fell in love with the book, I fell in love with feminist theology, I was enormously grateful for being sort of drawn into this way of thinking, um, and, and, what I love about it, is, is, it, it, broadens, and getting back to, again, a lot of the ideas that Wendy's bringing out, and that we're all bringing out, um, it broadens who holds knowledge, and, what is defined as knowledge, and lived experience, um, becomes a valued form of knowledge, it is not lesser than, when we're thinking about what is knowledge, and what constitutes knowledge. It values the lived experience, it doesn't minimize suffering, it doesn't glorify suffering, or valourized suffering. It brings suffering into a meaningful conversation with theology, and holds theology accountable in ways that that maybe other, other, theological discourses don't. Um, so that would be, if you wanted to ask what my favourite book was, it would probably be that one.
There are others, and maybe we can talk about that in another podcast, but that would be my favourite book, um, and I-- it's a hard book to read, it talks about suffering in an honest way and in a very lived ex-- lived way, um, stories that are not used merely as case studies, but are-- are stories, um, but it brings it into conversation with theology in a really meaningful and helpful way for, at least for me.
Thanks so much, Laura, yeah, we'll, we'll, um, we will make sure that we link some of these resources for listeners to find easily. Well, we're coming up at about at the hour mark. Just wondering if anybody has any last thoughts that they'd like to share?
It's really refreshing to sit in a group who understands why, why theology, what theology makes us angry. People who get it.
Yeah, and I think we will go to sort of part two of our conversation in our next-- our next episode, where we will answer the question of, you know, what theologies do you know now that you wish your younger self would have known. So, I guess that will be the other side of the coin where we'll be able to talk about some of theologies that we really love, and that have changed our lives.
So, thank you so much to all our listeners.
Thank you Laura and Wendy.
Thanks for inviting us.
My pleasure.
I love being part of these conversations.